The underlying theology is the same. Muhammad (pbuh) says "He who does not love his brother is not a Muslim", love (like compassion) being equated with action, not a fuzzy feeling. Talking of which, Jesus gave the concept an interesting twist when he used a very rare term to define his concept of tzedekah (Hebrew term jm is referring to). He called it agape (or at least that's how it is translated into Greek). Agape is of course, love in the sense of altruistic unconditional love. That idea kind of transcends the argument whether or not moral obligation is involved.jm wrote:I think the Koran treats charity as a moral obligation in equally strong terms as in Judaism.
Slave Labour Wages
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I came, I argued, I'm out
olderguy wrote:...
You should be more careful, talking shit and then posting where anyone can find you and your family.
I'm not the violent type but someone else might show up someday and give you a facefull of sidewalk.
I'm not much for censorship, but this forum should punish you for your careless disregard of others.
You're a real nutjob. Now you're looking for a hitman? You're the one who should fuck right off.
That's not what I meant.SunSan wrote:olderguy wrote:...
You should be more careful, talking shit and then posting where anyone can find you and your family.
I'm not the violent type but someone else might show up someday and give you a facefull of sidewalk.
I'm not much for censorship, but this forum should punish you for your careless disregard of others.
You're a real nutjob. Now you're looking for a hitman? You're the one who should fuck right off.
Andrew is rude to lots of others and not everyone is as passive as me.
jm, I work for the Jewish carpenter's son from Nazareth. same same
Do you leave the price tag on gifts given to Khmer's? They almost always ask me what I paid for the gift after I have given it to them. From my own perspective I don't consider any money I own to be mine so it is not an ego thing with me. On the other hand maybe I do sometimes. Sometimes that ego gets in the way. But I try. Time is so much more valuable than money.
Do you leave the price tag on gifts given to Khmer's? They almost always ask me what I paid for the gift after I have given it to them. From my own perspective I don't consider any money I own to be mine so it is not an ego thing with me. On the other hand maybe I do sometimes. Sometimes that ego gets in the way. But I try. Time is so much more valuable than money.
If I knew for certain that a person was coming to my house with the intent of doing me good, I would run for my life HDT
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I never do. From my experience, this is my observation: I have raised that specific question with my wife's family in the past and they told me that it was the height of bad manners and they'd never dream of asking. On the other hand, in my first year in Cambodia my first girlfriend asked me the price of everything I bought her. In retrospect it was one of the many signs I missed that she had a gambling problem. Make of that what you will, but at the very least you might conclude that there is no simple party line on the issue amongst Cambodians.willie wrote:Do you leave the price tag on gifts given to Khmer's? They almost always ask me what I paid for the gift after I have given it to them.
I came, I argued, I'm out
Who gives gifts at a Cambodian wedding? You give money. You stick 20USD into the envelope the invitation came in and you give that envelope to the reception committee. They will carefully write out a list with the names of the wedding attendees and how much was donated.
That's their culture and tradition. Nothing wrong with that, honest and open and transparent.
That's their culture and tradition. Nothing wrong with that, honest and open and transparent.
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Yep, I thought like that when I was in middle school; used to read a lot of Ayn Rand (popular with those that can't digest real philosophy; kids and the like).Hoopharted wrote:Why would you ?jm wrote:if you view charity as a moral obligation then there is a difference.
The problem with this view is that it mandates we live in our own little vacuums. But we don't. Your personality, friendships, and even wealth are gained from living in a society. Your parents, schools, friendships, religions, country of origin, and language are just some examples of ways society has influenced you. You're not some individual who has gained everything you have by yourself.
No, I don't think you have to volunteer at some NGO to qualify your moral obligation to charity, but to act like you have none is a statement that I find very flawed. Surely there is some person or cause that you feel you owe something to.
"This is my happening and it freaks me out!"
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I am quite the opposite to you finding it flawed, on the contrary, I find those volunteering under the compulsion of morality to be "suspicious" eg Like the Christians helping put drinking wells into rural areas of Cambodia but only allowing people who convert to Christianity to use them... or APLE riding around on on moto's looking for "paedophiles", going right past kids scavenging from rubbish bags etc. I think a lack of critical thinking is an issue.matty wrote:No, I don't think you have to volunteer at some NGO to qualify your moral obligation to charity, but to act like you have none is a statement that I find very flawed. Surely there is some person or cause that you feel you owe something to.
My feelings exactly, just stated much more eloquently than I could hope to do.jm wrote:Charity with an agenda like that is not charity at all. On the other hand giving to someone you feel you owe something to is also not charity it's debt repayment. True charity comes from the recognition that the fact that you're drinking beer in Phnom Penh rather than being a child soldier in Chad is is a matter of fate/God's Grace, and that recognition should IMHO carry with it some obligation to share that lucky hand with the less fortunate without any expectation of recognition or return.
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Please provide a link to evidence of Christians putting wells in Cambodia and not allowing non Christians to use them. I suspect this is a strawman beat up. I've spent a fair bit of time with missionaries and I would be hard pressed to find one that would deny water to a non Christian.Hoopharted wrote:
I am quite the opposite to you finding it flawed, on the contrary, I find those volunteering under the compulsion of morality to be "suspicious" eg Like the Christians helping put drinking wells into rural areas of Cambodia but only allowing people who convert to Christianity to use them... or APLE riding around on on moto's looking for "paedophiles", going right past kids scavenging from rubbish bags etc. I think a lack of critical thinking is an issue.
APLE have their own mission and purpose, which is to attempt to prevent pedo tourism. Would you suggest that a fireman should make an arrest, that a paramedic should put out a fire, or that a policeman should attempt an emergency surgical operation?
Perhaps charity is the flow of money from poor people in rich countries, to rich people in poor countries. Or a man with a giant cheque and a photo opportunity. Or a guilt trip. Or a show. But for me this is not charity.
Charity is both a moral obligation (for some) and the outflow of a heart that is fueled on love (agape), and has been tempered with compassion and kindness(for others). One gives because one has the means and the other does not. It is done quietly and without fanfare. It is not something that requires a lot of thought, or a moral or ethical discussion. Charity is like rain from the clouds, the over flow of a river, the light from the sun, or osmosis.
It happens because it is the perfected natural condition of the heart to share with others.
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
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I love it, two classics of Cambodian expat mythology: APLE’s evil secret agents roaming the city streets entrapping innocent paedophiles; meanwhile, out in the countryside, villagers are being forced to bow down to Jesus before they’re allowed to drink water.MoodyMac wrote:Please provide a link to evidence of Christians putting wells in Cambodia and not allowing non Christians to use them. I suspect this is a strawman beat up. I've spent a fair bit of time with missionaries and I would be hard pressed to find one that would deny water to a non Christian.Hoopharted wrote:
I am quite the opposite to you finding it flawed, on the contrary, I find those volunteering under the compulsion of morality to be "suspicious" eg Like the Christians helping put drinking wells into rural areas of Cambodia but only allowing people who convert to Christianity to use them... or APLE riding around on on moto's looking for "paedophiles", going right past kids scavenging from rubbish bags etc. I think a lack of critical thinking is an issue.
APLE have their own mission and purpose, which is to attempt to prevent pedo tourism. Would you suggest that a fireman should make an arrest, that a paramedic should put out a fire, or that a policeman should attempt an emergency surgical operation?
Let them run with it MM, it’s harmless. Imagine what these anti-NGO types might get up to if they were forced to actually think for themselves.
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Very well said. In addition to this thread, the board is infested with this kind of uninformed cynicism at the moment. Not sure why but it surely puts of potentially interesting newcomers and well as longterm posters who can't be bothered trying to conduct a rational conversation, leading to a vicious cycle.shitegeist wrote: I love it, two classics of Cambodian expat mythology: APLE’s evil secret agents roaming the city streets entrapping innocent paedophiles; meanwhile, out in the countryside, villagers are being forced to bow down to Jesus before they’re allowed to drink water.
Let them run with it MM, it’s harmless. Imagine what these anti-NGO types might get up to if they were forced to actually think for themselves.
I came, I argued, I'm out
Moody Mac was originally perplexed about wages, and what is appropriate in Cambodia.
A lot of people have conributed their opinions, many times on subjects that have absolutely no bearing on Moody Mac's problems. That includes me, as I began to digress on what I do, in monetary terms, for one individual Khmer who happens to be female.
I think, Moody Mac, that you have enough experience and wisdom to know what is appropriate as a wage, as opposed to a salary, for a Cambodian. I also think that you have enough experience and wisdom to know what a great many people are worth in a great many countries, even if not their own!
But I maintain my socialist view, tempered by education.
There will be migration of people from the provinces, seeking " the yellow brick road". This has occurred since time immemorial. Does the saying " all roads lead to Rome" ring a bell" In Cambodia, all roads lead to Phnom Penh.
Unless you are much smarter than me, like my Khmer wife, who believes all roads lead OUT of Phnom Penh, even if it is only to Kampuchea Krom!
A lot of people have conributed their opinions, many times on subjects that have absolutely no bearing on Moody Mac's problems. That includes me, as I began to digress on what I do, in monetary terms, for one individual Khmer who happens to be female.
I think, Moody Mac, that you have enough experience and wisdom to know what is appropriate as a wage, as opposed to a salary, for a Cambodian. I also think that you have enough experience and wisdom to know what a great many people are worth in a great many countries, even if not their own!
But I maintain my socialist view, tempered by education.
There will be migration of people from the provinces, seeking " the yellow brick road". This has occurred since time immemorial. Does the saying " all roads lead to Rome" ring a bell" In Cambodia, all roads lead to Phnom Penh.
Unless you are much smarter than me, like my Khmer wife, who believes all roads lead OUT of Phnom Penh, even if it is only to Kampuchea Krom!
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