2 Destitute Brits Sleeping Rough Outside Embassy
- springrain
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As regards the piece pointed out by LL and LTO:
Ah, the black & white striped rugby shirt brings back some memories. It is a 'nice' piece (the writing, not the shirt), but it is equally disturbing. Not because it points out the tendency to help out one's 'own' racial type, but because it suggests that folk will give financial donations to white chaps (and chapesses) to the exclusion of local folk who might be in an equally difficult position.
I think that such an assertion is bunkum. It might apply to bus-loads of tourists disengaging, and gorging, themselves off a tank-like conveyance (disguised as a coach), readying themselves for an assault on the ego-controlled-sympathy-centres of the brain & heart. But folk who have been here for a while will cast a discerning eye around and conclude that some might be more deserving than others, even though all pigs might be deemed equal - at first.
A few donations might clear the conscience and create all sorts of warm feelings inside, but those that make a living out of sponging 'donations' will do so forever.
I don't believe the poor chap of this thread falls into that category. He may have done some dumb things (haven't we all?) but is now in a situation where he can't really (perhaps doesn't know how to?) help himself. Does he know a whole, long thread is all about him? Is he aware that folk are talking about him, so he is milking it for all it's worth? Of course not!
I hope he gets out of this mess.
***Edit***
LTO, I'd imagine a Vietnamese guy in a similar situation would certainly get a similar amount of sympathy. Remember that photo of a Vietnamese kid (girl, circa 1973/4) running away from a napalm attack? That certainly got a lot of sympathy when published. I just don't think one can pretend to play the 'race card' any longer. Human suffering does strike a nerve of human conscience irrespective of racial/ethnic origin.
Ah, the black & white striped rugby shirt brings back some memories. It is a 'nice' piece (the writing, not the shirt), but it is equally disturbing. Not because it points out the tendency to help out one's 'own' racial type, but because it suggests that folk will give financial donations to white chaps (and chapesses) to the exclusion of local folk who might be in an equally difficult position.
I think that such an assertion is bunkum. It might apply to bus-loads of tourists disengaging, and gorging, themselves off a tank-like conveyance (disguised as a coach), readying themselves for an assault on the ego-controlled-sympathy-centres of the brain & heart. But folk who have been here for a while will cast a discerning eye around and conclude that some might be more deserving than others, even though all pigs might be deemed equal - at first.
A few donations might clear the conscience and create all sorts of warm feelings inside, but those that make a living out of sponging 'donations' will do so forever.
I don't believe the poor chap of this thread falls into that category. He may have done some dumb things (haven't we all?) but is now in a situation where he can't really (perhaps doesn't know how to?) help himself. Does he know a whole, long thread is all about him? Is he aware that folk are talking about him, so he is milking it for all it's worth? Of course not!
I hope he gets out of this mess.
***Edit***
LTO, I'd imagine a Vietnamese guy in a similar situation would certainly get a similar amount of sympathy. Remember that photo of a Vietnamese kid (girl, circa 1973/4) running away from a napalm attack? That certainly got a lot of sympathy when published. I just don't think one can pretend to play the 'race card' any longer. Human suffering does strike a nerve of human conscience irrespective of racial/ethnic origin.
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
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Lucky Lucan wrote:There was a front page piece on this topic a few years ago:What were people thinking about giving money to these scam-artists? They most likely thought about their own lives and this nasty and unpleasant place. Perhaps in these people they could see themselves, in hell.
They felt sorry for them because they wouldn’t want to get in trouble here either. What a terrible fate that would be. So they stuck their hands in their pockets, and paid royally. None of your 500 riel rubbish that you might throw a ghost-lady who floats up to you in a Caltex forecourt, this was five, ten, even twenty dollars.
You expect to see impoverished locals in an underdeveloped country. Seeing a supposedly-poor foreigner here at first seems so strange that it can inspire sympathy that would be absent back at home where junkies and Gypsies are commonplace.
http://www.khmer440.com/k/2012/05/phnom ... os-part-1/
Up on Knob Hill and in Union Square in San Francisco, there is an extremely successful beggar who plys his trade in front of a few of the larger hotels and tour bus stops. His key to success is that he looks very much like a clean cut Asian-American frat-boy. He's handsome, dresses well with a wardrobe straight out of the nearby Macy's and Nordstrom's. He's got a $100 haircut, great teeth and has his story down pat: He's a tourist from the east coast, has a flight out and his tour group bus just bolted with his bag, cellphone, wallet, everything. Not only that, his parents and his sister are on that same bus, and they're the only one's who can help him. He's got to get to the airport pronto and needs to get cab fare together. Give him your number and he'll call you as soon as he gets home and you'll be repaid in spades. People fall all over themselves to give him $10, $20 or even more. Lot's, perhaps even most, will tell him something to the effect of "just pay it forward next time you can".
All around him are dirty, forsaken panhandlers and even entire families, scruffy, with their empty beggars bowls and sad cardboard signs. He's no better than them, but oh how the tourists smile, knowing they've helped out such a deserving young man.
I passed this guy at least a hundred times on my way to work. Everyone working or living in the area knows him, or knows of him. He's real friendly with the locals. I reckon it helps to not have people shutting him down every time he starts his come-on with a tourist. I've watched him work and I estimate that he can easily pull several hundred dollars in just a few hours of hustling. I think that being Asian really works for him with the white folks. They automatically assume he's well off. I noticed that he tries not to waste his time with other Asians.
That's like, your opinion, man.
I know, right? Who hasn't pissed away whatever money we had on drugs and hookers at far side of the world without any safety net in place and despite having dependents back home? Well, the vast majority of people. That's who. There is a wide spectrum of 'dumb' things one can do. Nick's are at the far end of said spectrum, and more importantly, the situation he is in is largely of his own making. Unlike the majority of poor people in Cambodia.springrain wrote: He may have done some dumb things (haven't we all?)
I'd say it's comparing apples to oranges. But that'd be unfair as they have more in common than the scenarios you posit. LTO's scenario of a Vietnamese adult hooked on drugs and willingly pissing away whatever money he has at the expense of his children and ending sleeping rough is nowhere near the situation of a poor child being attacked on napalm. Your sense of moral equivalence is truly off the scale.springrain wrote:
LTO, I'd imagine a Vietnamese guy in a similar situation would certainly get a similar amount of sympathy. Remember that photo of a Vietnamese kid (girl, circa 1973/4) running away from a napalm attack? That certainly got a lot of sympathy when published. I just don't think one can pretend to play the 'race card' any longer. Human suffering does strike a nerve of human conscience irrespective of racial/ethnic origin.
A tree born crooked will never grow straight.
- springrain
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Hemmers, how do you know who's to blame for unfortunate situations in which people find themselves? Have you never been in a situation where you have wondered why it has happened to you?
From what point can you extrapolate a problem back and then smugly conclude, 'it wasn't my fault'? Everything is connected to everything else. Nothing is ever of 'one's own making'. Who is responsible for the 'poor people of Cambodia'? Are they poor of their own volition? Are you saying that Nick should be condemned as someone who created his own problems? How do you know?
What would you have done with him?
From what point can you extrapolate a problem back and then smugly conclude, 'it wasn't my fault'? Everything is connected to everything else. Nothing is ever of 'one's own making'. Who is responsible for the 'poor people of Cambodia'? Are they poor of their own volition? Are you saying that Nick should be condemned as someone who created his own problems? How do you know?
What would you have done with him?
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
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Good point. But while it may not be true that 'we' help those like us "to the exclusion" of those who are not like us, charitable resources, time and money are limited, and when we do choose to help, especially in a massive resource sucking case like Nick has turned out to be, is it not possible that resources are being diverted to him that may have otherwise gone to local folk? Perhaps even a disproportionate amount of resources into a single individual? If SCC had not spent a hundred hours and untold dollars on Nick, might those resources have been spent on local folk in desperate need of something such as medical care? And, if those resources would not have otherwise gone to local folk, why not? If it is not because 'we' are helping those 'like us' to the exclusion of local folk, is it then because we reserve our charitable resources only (or primarily) for 'our own kind'? (Honest questions. I am not trying to be leading or rhetorical.)springrain wrote:As regards the piece pointed out by LL and LTO:
Ah, the black & white striped rugby shirt brings back some memories. It is a 'nice' piece (the writing, not the shirt), but it is equally disturbing. Not because it points out the tendency to help out one's 'own' racial type, but because it suggests that folk will give financial donations to white chaps (and chapesses) to the exclusion of local folk who might be in an equally difficult position...
- springrain
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Yes, of course, LTO, in an ideal world, one would like to see all the available resources distributed to those in need in an identifiable structure of 'needability'(to coin a phrase).
But, as you have pointed out, such a structure is bound to be arbitrary. It cannot be any other way. So, as it is arbitrary, mistakes are bound to be made.
I would challenge whether Nick's case is a 'resource-sucking' case. Sure, it has used up resources (the price of which is determined by the fiscal cost of treatment, machinery, staff and so on) and it certainly must have cost a packet. But would costings have been adjusted to account for the fact that a barang was being treated as opposed to a local? I'm sure that 'life-pricings' do go on in the KoW. (You know as well as I do that that is the case.) To allude to something similar to your own analogy, might a Vietnamese citizen have cost the same amount?
If someone could draw up an index of 'who-deserves-to-live-and-who-to die' based on a ten-point-scale, that might satisfy the statisticians, but it would not satisfy those who would like to see all possible resources used to 'save' as many as possible.
Ultimately, I would like to see all people given all possibility of making the best of their lives. Probably won't happen! (I'm not a supporter of Leibniz, btw!)
But, as you have pointed out, such a structure is bound to be arbitrary. It cannot be any other way. So, as it is arbitrary, mistakes are bound to be made.
I would challenge whether Nick's case is a 'resource-sucking' case. Sure, it has used up resources (the price of which is determined by the fiscal cost of treatment, machinery, staff and so on) and it certainly must have cost a packet. But would costings have been adjusted to account for the fact that a barang was being treated as opposed to a local? I'm sure that 'life-pricings' do go on in the KoW. (You know as well as I do that that is the case.) To allude to something similar to your own analogy, might a Vietnamese citizen have cost the same amount?
If someone could draw up an index of 'who-deserves-to-live-and-who-to die' based on a ten-point-scale, that might satisfy the statisticians, but it would not satisfy those who would like to see all possible resources used to 'save' as many as possible.
Ultimately, I would like to see all people given all possibility of making the best of their lives. Probably won't happen! (I'm not a supporter of Leibniz, btw!)
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
No, I have not. I usually have a pretty good handle of why things have happened the way they have. And none of the situations I have been in were remotely comparable to absconding my responsibilities as a father.springrain wrote:Hemmers, how do you know who's to blame for unfortunate situations in which people find themselves? Have you never been in a situation where you have wondered why it has happened to you?
Many things are in fact of our own making. No one is forcing me to reply to you. It's of my own making. No one forced Nick to fly away and spend money in drugs rather than on his children. No one put a gun to his head and forced him not take travel insurance. No one forced him not to take the opportunities provided by being born in a country that provides for free education, housing and health care. Unlike the majority of Cambodians who don't get any of those opportunities. You make the absolute statement 'Nothing is ever of one's making'. If that be the case, then no one ever has to take responsibilities for their own actions. I very much disagree with that.springrain wrote: Nothing is ever of 'one's own making'. Who is responsible for the 'poor people of Cambodia'? Are they poor of their own volition? Are you saying that Nick should be condemned as someone who created his own problems? How do you know?
Nothing. And if that should make me a bad person in the eyes of some, then I accept that judgement and would take responsibility for my decision and whatever opprobrium that came my way. But according to you, I cannot be blamed for my actions and/or decisions (or lack of thereof), since 'we've all done some dumb things' and 'nothing is ever of our own making.'What would you have done with him?
A tree born crooked will never grow straight.
- springrain
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Hemmingway, thanks for the reply. I still contend that we may think we are responding independently, ie of our own volition, but our egos are really controlling much of what 'we' (think 'we') do.
True that he has had better opportunities than most. But has he? A cursory glance at their (both of their) childhoods suggests that not everything may have been Hunky Dory. So they might not be completely to blame for their actions. You and I might have been lucky enough to have been surrounded by Love and affection in our childhoods, but some others may not have been so fortunate.
They say that the first six years of life are the really formative years; tracking back to those might reveal truths that could partially explain later behaviour. I say give him another chance.
True that he has had better opportunities than most. But has he? A cursory glance at their (both of their) childhoods suggests that not everything may have been Hunky Dory. So they might not be completely to blame for their actions. You and I might have been lucky enough to have been surrounded by Love and affection in our childhoods, but some others may not have been so fortunate.
They say that the first six years of life are the really formative years; tracking back to those might reveal truths that could partially explain later behaviour. I say give him another chance.
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
I agree with you that, yes, societal influence especially in early years does have a big influence on who we become. I can appreciate that whatever background Nick came from would have had an influence on his moral code and his ability to make the right decisions. Where I think we will continue to respectfully disagree is as to where the buck stops and when one must take responsibility for their actions. I suspect you will give more leeway than I would. So be it.
A tree born crooked will never grow straight.
You eat rice yet ?pedros wrote:
I refuse to go out with nothing more than a whimper followed by a small farting sound and a shit stain on my bed sheets..
Just thought I'd share that with you.
Just thought I'd share that with you.
- springrain
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I like engaging with Harold, and I see he is online now.
Harold, mate, you question whether Literature has anything to do with 'real life.' I reckon literature holds a mirror to our perception of what is 'real'.
Not Waving but Drowning[/b]
By Stevie Smith
Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.
Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he’s dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.
Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.
Isn't Stevie Smith wonderful? Far out?
Harold, mate, you question whether Literature has anything to do with 'real life.' I reckon literature holds a mirror to our perception of what is 'real'.
Not Waving but Drowning[/b]
By Stevie Smith
Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.
Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he’s dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.
Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.
Isn't Stevie Smith wonderful? Far out?
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
- spitthedog
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Surely all of the above is bollox though if you think long and hard about everyone you have really got to know though. People can be totally irrational half of the time about all sorts of things. Most people are abit bonkers in some way or another imo. This whole thread is completely fucking nuts. A couple of months ago i read that this guy was ''mangled'' and in a coma after being run over by a truck. Now i see a photo of him with what looks like one swollen ankle after doing a runner from the hospital.Hemingway wrote: Many things are in fact of our own making. No one is forcing me to reply to you. It's of my own making. No one forced Nick to fly away and spend money in drugs rather than on his children. No one put a gun to his head and forced him not take travel insurance. No one forced him not to take the opportunities provided by being born in a country that provides for free education, housing and health care. Unlike the majority of Cambodians who don't get any of those opportunities. You make the absolute statement 'Nothing is ever of one's making'. If that be the case, then no one ever has to take responsibilities for their own actions. I very much disagree with that.
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
Someone has reported on Khmer440's Facebook page that he spotted Nick at GSM a couple of hours ago.
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