To buy or not to buy
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I'm with you most of the way there jack, but on that last point some of the boreys are very shoddily built and would give a tenant real headaches in a year or two. At Peng Huoth you're paying a premium for quality and security.
I came, I argued, I'm out
Totally correct andy, yet I did give a look at the villa construction in various boreys and they need to be evaluated individually. While the shop houses at peng hout are better than most others in PP the villas are easily just as good as peng hout in many other boreys from what I have seen. A few even better. Personally for villas I would avoid peng hout because I rather have a discount and do the interior decorating myself, their decorations look neat but they feel like IKEA products as materials go. Which its excellent for a shop house but underwhelming for a villa for which you spent a small fortune
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I was asked to look round a semi-villa but the 3-bed house was enough for our needs so I didn't bother. However, I'm of the impression that houses and villas are both minimally furnished - just some simple units in the kitchen and ground floor. I did all the interior design, right down to the floor covering, myself. I assume the same would be the case re. the villas at PH (obviously one disregards the showhouses).
I came, I argued, I'm out
Another interesting factor to consider is getting inside info regarding how the borey plans to make money,
Some borey plan to make the vast majority of profits from the shop houses and build few villas mostly to make the whole project look beautiful and than sell the shouphouses for more money than they would otherwise (this generally means shoddily built shop houses but decently build villas as those are kind of a flagship for the project, generally they will build few of the villas first and those are often the best built ones). Other boreys such as peng hout have a more flat attitude and expect their profits to be evenly distributed. Few boreys plan to gain the majority of profits from villas and they often have shop houses only on the main road (this doesn't mean that the shop houses are particularly good just they will most likely order the same materials for the villas and the shop houses instead of buying different cheaper materials for the shop houses, also less shouphouses = less competition for the high income costumers making them a better investment). Generally buying what makes them the least profit is a good way to buy at a good value. Often you can figure things out with a bit of math.
Some borey plan to make the vast majority of profits from the shop houses and build few villas mostly to make the whole project look beautiful and than sell the shouphouses for more money than they would otherwise (this generally means shoddily built shop houses but decently build villas as those are kind of a flagship for the project, generally they will build few of the villas first and those are often the best built ones). Other boreys such as peng hout have a more flat attitude and expect their profits to be evenly distributed. Few boreys plan to gain the majority of profits from villas and they often have shop houses only on the main road (this doesn't mean that the shop houses are particularly good just they will most likely order the same materials for the villas and the shop houses instead of buying different cheaper materials for the shop houses, also less shouphouses = less competition for the high income costumers making them a better investment). Generally buying what makes them the least profit is a good way to buy at a good value. Often you can figure things out with a bit of math.
I think the prototype I looked at was the 5.5 by 7.5 shophouse with three floors. It was 80K I think. I liked the nearly square floor plan, it worked well.
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Whats the deal with body corp fees, is there any? I talked to a Khmer lady i done a deal with last month and she had bought a twin villa in the Chba Ampov one and said there was no body corp fees at all............
How does it get maintained?
How does it get maintained?
Bosco
See if you can just buy a shell and finish it yourself. The Khmer..especially Penh Huoth...completely fuck the fit outs with either basic design oversights or fucking awful naff firnishings...Or both. Andy is a paki chav so he loves that shit
You could then ensure you have all the things you want, where you want. Like...proper shower stalls for a start.
Another thing to consider with the borays is you will have a very hard time selling or renting . I know several Khmer who have bought into the PH developments and even they realise that supply on these types of developments is now so abundant it's ridiculous and they feel trapped. Go out to Boray PH platinum and check out how many places have RENT/SELL on them. It's a buyer's market.
I think the one differentiation you could have is getting the shell and fully westernising it. Also...BPH seemingly puts little to no zoning inside their borays so be prepared for small businesses to pop up right opposite your house. My sister in law bought into BPH Platinum and just after a khmer family set up shop right opposite her. I am told they do not have tpo apply or pay extra fees etc etc Whilst it is kind of handy to have beer and ice for sale right opposite, the 4m2 Cambodia Beer banner they have hung from the top balcony that now dominates my SIL street outlook is kind of fucked. She also had alot of hassle when she went about hedging in her front patio with very nice temporary planter boxes so she had some privacy. She had several visits from BPH admin which she fended off and then my BIL who is a MOD heavy went in there and told them in no uncertain terms that if people can set up shop wherever they want....he can greenify his front porch. They have not been back. My SIL says that many of the people who bought in and live there now want to actually move out because they find Boray life frightfully boring and miss living in close(r) quarter khmer hoods where street food is available and there are many corner shops etc etc. Personally - as a westerner - I actually like the BPH Platinum as you can walk dogs, ride bikes and yes...it is quiet. I would never buy one though.
Just fyi...$160k would buy you two shophouses side by side on their own block of land in boueng tumpun just 5mins from Russian market. You'd sell them almost immediately if needed as per above... Khmer want to live in Khmer neighborhoods. I know the location doesn't work for you...just saying.
Good luck with it.
Rc
See if you can just buy a shell and finish it yourself. The Khmer..especially Penh Huoth...completely fuck the fit outs with either basic design oversights or fucking awful naff firnishings...Or both. Andy is a paki chav so he loves that shit
You could then ensure you have all the things you want, where you want. Like...proper shower stalls for a start.
Another thing to consider with the borays is you will have a very hard time selling or renting . I know several Khmer who have bought into the PH developments and even they realise that supply on these types of developments is now so abundant it's ridiculous and they feel trapped. Go out to Boray PH platinum and check out how many places have RENT/SELL on them. It's a buyer's market.
I think the one differentiation you could have is getting the shell and fully westernising it. Also...BPH seemingly puts little to no zoning inside their borays so be prepared for small businesses to pop up right opposite your house. My sister in law bought into BPH Platinum and just after a khmer family set up shop right opposite her. I am told they do not have tpo apply or pay extra fees etc etc Whilst it is kind of handy to have beer and ice for sale right opposite, the 4m2 Cambodia Beer banner they have hung from the top balcony that now dominates my SIL street outlook is kind of fucked. She also had alot of hassle when she went about hedging in her front patio with very nice temporary planter boxes so she had some privacy. She had several visits from BPH admin which she fended off and then my BIL who is a MOD heavy went in there and told them in no uncertain terms that if people can set up shop wherever they want....he can greenify his front porch. They have not been back. My SIL says that many of the people who bought in and live there now want to actually move out because they find Boray life frightfully boring and miss living in close(r) quarter khmer hoods where street food is available and there are many corner shops etc etc. Personally - as a westerner - I actually like the BPH Platinum as you can walk dogs, ride bikes and yes...it is quiet. I would never buy one though.
Just fyi...$160k would buy you two shophouses side by side on their own block of land in boueng tumpun just 5mins from Russian market. You'd sell them almost immediately if needed as per above... Khmer want to live in Khmer neighborhoods. I know the location doesn't work for you...just saying.
Good luck with it.
Rc
Last edited by ricecakes on Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rated R for Ricecakes
Go and look at any five year old boray.Notorious9 wrote: How does it get maintained?
There's your answer.
Rated R for Ricecakes
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Haha, on a somewhat related note, I stayed at DeCastle Royal for a couple of months earlier this year.ricecakes wrote:Go and look at any five year old boray.Notorious9 wrote: How does it get maintained?
There's your answer.
A few observations:
1. The fit out seemed pretty low quality, with crap flooring and counter tops and cabinets and flimsy interior doors and what not.
2. The kept posting a lot of notices in the elevators about the maintenance/fees, I remember seeing a schedule of fines or something that looked really lax. Something like, after your payment is late by 30-45 days, you're assessed .2 percent per month or some pittance like that.
3. Speaking of elevators, Decastle Royal has six elevators for the 30 story building, which seems reasonable. One of them though has a notice saying it it permanently turned off the save electricity. One is dedicated to staff use only. Another one is labeled "move in only."
So, that means they really only have available three elevators for residents/tenants to use. Then they have other signs up saying that, to save electricity and keep fees down, one of those three elevators will be turned off from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.
Also, sometimes one of the elevators would be down for maintenance. Anyway, it got to the point where it was not uncommon to spend 5-10 minutes commuting between my unit and the ground floor each time I entered or left, with all the waiting for elevators and then stopping at every floor because they are overly crowded and have only 2-3 elevators in use for a 30 story building.
It's just something to keep in mind if planning to buy a town house/condo in Cambodia where you and other neighbors share costs of maintenance for common areas. Things might be maintained in the Khmer/Korean/Chinese way, which may not be up to your expectations. It also seems some owners in Cambodia aren't inclined to pay maintenance fees in a timely manner and there may not be an effective way to make them do so.
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I know for a fact DCR does not maintain their elevators. I pitched for the business once and was told "no have budget". They also do not adhere to rmp's for AC and gensets.
Rated R for Ricecakes
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Yes, in the 3 years I lived in a DeCastle condo the maintenance got progressively worse. Apart from the elevators, a good insight could be gleaned from the ways they kept changing security companies. It was a shame - we'd build up a good relationship with the lowly-paid security guards and then suddenly they'd all be replaced because another company had undercut the tender by a few dollars. My wife always made good relations with the succession of building managers who'd tell her how crap the pay and conditions were before leaving themselves.
I have some sympathy for the condo company however; I got the impression that too many apartment owners simply refused to pay the monthly maintenance fee. Maybe there was an element of a vicious cycle in that they were annoyed with the poor service so stopped paying for it rendering it even worse, but I think the main reason is that many are absentee owners and don't give a toss if the poor maintenance adversely affects their rental tenants. I certainly quickly concluded that whilst renting a condo is fine, I would never buy one here.
I think boreys can be different. For one thing, most houses are owned by their occupants who have a vested interest in good appearance and security. Having said that, I'm sure it varies a lot from borey to borey. I believe that the New World borey where Mr. New World actually lives is in terrific nick whereas his borey across town is going to the dogs. From the homework I did before buying a Peng Huot property I got the impression that residents in his early and completed houses had no complaints so I still have faith that our monthly $15 maintenance fee will be put to good use.
I have some sympathy for the condo company however; I got the impression that too many apartment owners simply refused to pay the monthly maintenance fee. Maybe there was an element of a vicious cycle in that they were annoyed with the poor service so stopped paying for it rendering it even worse, but I think the main reason is that many are absentee owners and don't give a toss if the poor maintenance adversely affects their rental tenants. I certainly quickly concluded that whilst renting a condo is fine, I would never buy one here.
I think boreys can be different. For one thing, most houses are owned by their occupants who have a vested interest in good appearance and security. Having said that, I'm sure it varies a lot from borey to borey. I believe that the New World borey where Mr. New World actually lives is in terrific nick whereas his borey across town is going to the dogs. From the homework I did before buying a Peng Huot property I got the impression that residents in his early and completed houses had no complaints so I still have faith that our monthly $15 maintenance fee will be put to good use.
I came, I argued, I'm out
I can only speak from my experiences out at BPH Platinum which is certainly his flagship development ;
BPH platinum has businesses all through it. General stores, salons, wedding dress shops, tailors etc. All with signage etc. I am told they pay no extra fees and to not have to apply for a "license".
Current rental rates on the larger 6m townhouses 4 levels / 5br that were sold at $120k is around $400 a month. That is a SHIT return. 3% ?
I would question the liquidity. Liquid implies easy to flip. I think you would be sitting on a completed one for ages if you were trying to make money on it. Problem with all these developments is there are new stages constantly coming on at the same prices as a year ago so why pay more ?If you want to invest in peng hout buy the 64~68k 5.5x7.5 shopouses. They are a much more liquid asset
Wrong.The concrete garden space is quite irrelevant in the borey since you can't do any modifications or improvements to it nor change its scope of use (no business use)
BPH platinum has businesses all through it. General stores, salons, wedding dress shops, tailors etc. All with signage etc. I am told they pay no extra fees and to not have to apply for a "license".
IMHO 2 shop houses in peng hout .....can produce a better rental income.
Current rental rates on the larger 6m townhouses 4 levels / 5br that were sold at $120k is around $400 a month. That is a SHIT return. 3% ?
IMHO only.....doubtful given the amount for sale in each development and the amount of new borays springing up.They will grow in value faster too.
Wrong. BPH Platinum has seen many owners roofing in their rear and side garden spaces for extra interior space. No permit required. I asked my SIL why Khmers roof in the back patio and she said " they turn them in to kitchens because they do not like to cook inside...it smells " Funny.....i thought cooking was an integral, enjoyable part of Khmer ( and all ) family life ? Retards.peng hout regulations didn't forbid modifications on the property
Wrong. See my previous posts about shops opening in BPH.Also you won't be able to turn the villa into a commercial property
Rated R for Ricecakes
Regarding your details about building modifications that you stressed three times: The regulations regarding the fact that you are not allowed to modify ANY element of the outer appearance of the house are very clear in the purchasing contract if people doesn't care anymore and peng hout allows all modifications now disregarding their own rules (which don't allow you to put business banners outside or to cover the outer space for example) just puts peng hout in a less premiere light. But its good for you if you think you can run a successful businesses inside a borey. That you could run a business in your own property was always permitted just made little sense in a half villa given design, position and regulations.
Regarding the returns:
I said the very same thing. The smallest property produce an higher return, the 68k (5.5*7.7)property produces an average 300$ rental where the 120k townhouse (4*16) rents for 400$ and the half villa 170k rents for 500$ (if you are lucky) . Are those returns quite abismal? Sure they are. Are the smallest properties still the best? No doubt. Are there better options Outside? Sure but we where talking about peng hout.
Regarding the value increase:
Until now all peng hour investor managed to gain about a 20% profit by buying early and selling at completion, plenty of examples. You say the new boreys cost the same as the old ones originally did (which is wrong) but they are also getting further and further away from the city center you must take that into consideration. Am I defending boreys as a good investment? Not really, I still think they are quite bad but Khmer people keep buying them and the prices have been growing steadily. Rental income has not increase however.
Regarding liquidity my comparison is between properties in the same borey, the cheaper properties are ,no doubt, more liquid than the half villas. Can you flip it for a profit at completion? Sure, if you buy early you can see the company increasing the property prices as sales progress in total about 25% from the first sales to the last property. And yes they are already practically sold out in all of the semi finished peng hout boreys even the last properties which are sold for 25% more (remember that you can get a further 6% discount by paying the full amount in cash even at the early stages). 20%+ profit is what makes all these Khmer people invest. It worked well so far but getting stuck with a hard to sell property for profit is getting easier and easier in the last years especially if you are buying from a previous buyer.
Still the organic demand due a young growing population is high even if the speculation is real.
I personally suggest to invest in smaller properties because they are more liquid than the villas.
Of course all housing options in general are not a very liquid asset so take this this is a comparative example.
Regarding the returns:
I said the very same thing. The smallest property produce an higher return, the 68k (5.5*7.7)property produces an average 300$ rental where the 120k townhouse (4*16) rents for 400$ and the half villa 170k rents for 500$ (if you are lucky) . Are those returns quite abismal? Sure they are. Are the smallest properties still the best? No doubt. Are there better options Outside? Sure but we where talking about peng hout.
Regarding the value increase:
Until now all peng hour investor managed to gain about a 20% profit by buying early and selling at completion, plenty of examples. You say the new boreys cost the same as the old ones originally did (which is wrong) but they are also getting further and further away from the city center you must take that into consideration. Am I defending boreys as a good investment? Not really, I still think they are quite bad but Khmer people keep buying them and the prices have been growing steadily. Rental income has not increase however.
Regarding liquidity my comparison is between properties in the same borey, the cheaper properties are ,no doubt, more liquid than the half villas. Can you flip it for a profit at completion? Sure, if you buy early you can see the company increasing the property prices as sales progress in total about 25% from the first sales to the last property. And yes they are already practically sold out in all of the semi finished peng hout boreys even the last properties which are sold for 25% more (remember that you can get a further 6% discount by paying the full amount in cash even at the early stages). 20%+ profit is what makes all these Khmer people invest. It worked well so far but getting stuck with a hard to sell property for profit is getting easier and easier in the last years especially if you are buying from a previous buyer.
Still the organic demand due a young growing population is high even if the speculation is real.
I personally suggest to invest in smaller properties because they are more liquid than the villas.
Of course all housing options in general are not a very liquid asset so take this this is a comparative example.