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IT is the anomaly, but even then given a choice of somebody who honed their skills in a university environment or some Aspy loner who honed his skills by spending 12 hours a day in the spare bedroom of his mother's house, I'd opt against adding the social degenerate to the team.
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- OrangeDragon
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common misconception by those who feel the need to validate their college investment by turning a blind eye to the direction the world is moving around them. should be gone in a generation or two.BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote:IT is the anomaly
most university's teaching comp sci classes are teaching antiquated languages, so only the most basic principles are actually useful in the career field. when technology changes drastically every year (or faster) what good are skills taught using 3 year old textbooks in the first year of a 4 year program. by the time you graduate that's 7 year old technology and beyond meaningless. last i checked (3-4 years ago) a lot of cs degree programs were still teaching cobal and fortran as their languages (out of use in the real world with a few VERY rare exceptions for over a decade, if not 2)... meaning they were just robbing their students.BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote:but even then given a choice of somebody who honed their skills in a university environment or some Aspy loner who honed his skills by spending 12 hours a day in the spare bedroom of his mother's house, I'd opt against adding the social degenerate to the team.
Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.
Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
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Yes, that's what I mean by IT being the anomaly. The key is the ability to stick to something for a prolonged period of time and the positive externalities gaining a degree brings, as has been noted many times on this thread. But outside of IT and vocational trades, what fields do you think don't benefit from employees having a university education? Would you employ an architect, accountant, lawyer, engineer, teacher, doctor, designer etc that wasn't academically qualified just because they were enthusiastic and passionate?OrangeDragon wrote:common misconception by those who feel the need to validate their college investment by turning a blind eye to the direction the world is moving around them. should be gone in a generation or two.BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote:IT is the anomalymost university's teaching comp sci classes are teaching antiquated languages, so only the most basic principles are actually useful in the career field. when technology changes drastically every year (or faster) what good are skills taught using 3 year old textbooks in the first year of a 4 year program. by the time you graduate that's 7 year old technology and beyond meaningless. last i checked (3-4 years ago) a lot of cs degree programs were still teaching cobal and fortran as their languages (out of use in the real world with a few VERY rare exceptions for over a decade, if not 2)... meaning they were just robbing their students.BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote:but even then given a choice of somebody who honed their skills in a university environment or some Aspy loner who honed his skills by spending 12 hours a day in the spare bedroom of his mother's house, I'd opt against adding the social degenerate to the team.
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- OrangeDragon
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given the endless amount of free educational resources available via the internet in the modern day, why would you assume that sitting in a brick classroom being forced to learn something would make you more qualified than sitting in your own room choosing to learn it?BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote: Would you employ an architect, accountant, lawyer, engineer, teacher, doctor, designer etc that wasn't academically qualified just because they were enthusiastic and passionate?
it's not like the professors have secret books and knowledge only they can convey to their paying students... and wouldn't, given 2 people who read the same books and watched the same lectures with one who was doing it 'just to get by' and another who was doing it because they honestly enjoyed the subject and WANTED more knowledge of it... wouldn't you imagine the one who really cared would retain it more?
and what shows more conviction and sticking with something than learning a complex trade without someone else there prodding you along and holding your hand so you can get by with 'good enough' to get a 'grade' and pass? c-average still equals a degree.
Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.
Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
I partly agree, but did you attend university/college, OD?
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I studied Cobal and Fortran in 1980! Waste of a semester!OrangeDragon wrote:common misconception by those who feel the need to validate their college investment by turning a blind eye to the direction the world is moving around them. should be gone in a generation or two.BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote:IT is the anomalymost university's teaching comp sci classes are teaching antiquated languages, so only the most basic principles are actually useful in the career field. when technology changes drastically every year (or faster) what good are skills taught using 3 year old textbooks in the first year of a 4 year program. by the time you graduate that's 7 year old technology and beyond meaningless. last i checked (3-4 years ago) a lot of cs degree programs were still teaching cobal and fortran as their languages (out of use in the real world with a few VERY rare exceptions for over a decade, if not 2)... meaning they were just robbing their students.BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote:but even then given a choice of somebody who honed their skills in a university environment or some Aspy loner who honed his skills by spending 12 hours a day in the spare bedroom of his mother's house, I'd opt against adding the social degenerate to the team.
- Jacked Camry
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I can only speak for engineering since that's what I took. Training as an engineer is not simply a matter of reading all the subject textbooks and passing the tests at your leisure. They're putting you into a pressure cooker and seeing whether you will be able to survive it. This is a way to weed out those who don't have the ability to master a heavy workload under severe time pressure with major consequences if you fail - which is a fairly common situation that you will face as an engineer. You can't mimic that through self-study. There are labs that require access to a lot of equipment that you are unlikely to be able to get access to outside of the university. There are practicums that you have to do in the field under supervision from qualified engineers. There are a lot of assignments that have to be completed in a short period of time which you need a supervisor to monitor and assess. There are group assignments that teach you to work in teams with other engineers.OrangeDragon wrote:given the endless amount of free educational resources available via the internet in the modern day, why would you assume that sitting in a brick classroom being forced to learn something would make you more qualified than sitting in your own room choosing to learn it?BURLESQUE@SDHHOTEL wrote: Would you employ an architect, accountant, lawyer, engineer, teacher, doctor, designer etc that wasn't academically qualified just because they were enthusiastic and passionate?
it's not like the professors have secret books and knowledge only they can convey to their paying students... and wouldn't, given 2 people who read the same books and watched the same lectures with one who was doing it 'just to get by' and another who was doing it because they honestly enjoyed the subject and WANTED more knowledge of it... wouldn't you imagine the one who really cared would retain it more?
and what shows more conviction and sticking with something than learning a complex trade without someone else there prodding you along and holding your hand so you can get by with 'good enough' to get a 'grade' and pass? c-average still equals a degree.
It was only in 3rd year that I realized that what they were doing was not assembling a collection of facts for me to master, what they were doing was molding my way of thinking - the facts weren't actually that important, they can be learned from a book. And by the middle of third year, that's indeed what I could do. What they were teaching me was a philosophy of applied science. Would I have been able to do that without having been put under the pressure and without the intense guidance? Possibly. But probably not, and they limit the course to those who demonstrate they have the academic basis to make it and deliberately weed out those who can't and those who can't handle the stress because they believe a profession that has people's lives resting on the decisions they make should be exclusive to those who are exceptional compared to the norm. Returning to one of the earlier posts, this is why you find crap engineers coming out of crap universities. They are easier to get into and easier to pass through. And not surprisingly, you don't get a lot of decent engineers that way.
^Plus the most difficult to enter professions require study plus work experience.
You don't walk out of university and call yourself a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer. You have (in the former two, not sure about engineering) a couple of years' hard and badly paid work experience to complete, then more professional exams, before you get to call yourself a junior.
You don't walk out of university and call yourself a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer. You have (in the former two, not sure about engineering) a couple of years' hard and badly paid work experience to complete, then more professional exams, before you get to call yourself a junior.
electron wrote:I partly agree, but did you attend university/college, OD?
It doesn't matter how many times you ask this, he's not going to answer. That in itself is the answer.
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Same in engineering. Although the pay isn't that bad while you're getting your work experience. However the pay doesn't go up as much afterwards as it does with lawyers and doctors.RobW wrote:^Plus the most difficult to enter professions require study plus work experience.
You don't walk out of university and call yourself a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer. You have (in the former two, not sure about engineering) a couple of years' hard and badly paid work experience to complete, then more professional exams, before you get to call yourself a junior.
- Jacked Camry
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That's kind of my point, but if as you say the majority are now crap schools, that's both depressing and alarming. There aren't enough people taking science and math-based degrees in the West, part of its continuing decline IMHO. Probably this is why standards are declining, they need to pump up demand and being less stringent is one way to do that. Everyone is allowed to opt out of the difficult courses too early and easily in high school, and parents seem to not be able to instill much discipline in kids these days. On top of that, engineers remain underpaid in comparison to other professions with similar degrees of difficulty, so many who stick it out soon become disenchanted and leave the technical world for other careers in business or whatever else. No wonder everything is falling to shit these days.Pol Pothead wrote:Some good engineering schools still practice that, but many, many others are just degree factories now. If you have time and the tuition money, you will pretty much get the degree, with or without comprehending and retaining any of the technical skills/information after final exams (where very few are allowed to fail anymore anyway).Jacked Camry wrote: Returning to one of the earlier posts, this is why you find crap engineers coming out of crap universities. They are easier to get into and easier to pass through. And not surprisingly, you don't get a lot of decent engineers that way.
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I've answered it before, that I did not. I started programming at 9 years old and have never stopped, even while teaching myself network engineering and then working under a senior level engineer to get better i was still working on development projects on the side. when not working in the tech field at all for periods of time i was still doing my own little applications on the side, and during a stint in jail over some youthful indiscretions i filled 6 notebooks with code that i later transcribed when i was back home. I did actually go to school for a little over 2 semesters... with the intent of going to medical school and becoming a Dr. I dropped out when I realized that medicine, enjoyable as it was, wasn't going to be my career path and that college had zero to offer me in the field of programming.scobienz wrote:electron wrote:I partly agree, but did you attend university/college, OD?
It doesn't matter how many times you ask this, he's not going to answer. That in itself is the answer.
This applies to IT as well... the ability to 'think' the solution rather than find it. It's why I have difficulty finding good developers anymore, because so many are 'i hear IT pays well, I'll go learn that!' versus people who 'think like a programmer'. But it's not exclusive to something you learn in a school... and if it took a school to teach it to you, that's fine, but don't discount those who were already able to think that way from the start and didn't need it. Some of what you listed, like the need for lab you couldn't get without a school, i agree with to some degree but that's also where that interning/apprenticing comes in. take a guy who's father was an engineer, and who ate/shat/slept/breathed engineering his whole life... does he need a lab or is the time he spent in the field working with his old man sufficient, and likely superior.Jacked Camry wrote:Would I have been able to do that without having been put under the pressure and without the intense guidance? Possibly. But probably not, and they limit the course to those who demonstrate they have the academic basis to make it and deliberately weed out those who can't and those who can't handle the stress because they believe a profession that has people's lives resting on the decisions they make should be exclusive to those who are exceptional compared to the norm.
And IT has a number of lives resting on it as well... who do you think wrote the firmware in some of that equipment you're using? or the software than plans the train schedules for that subway you're building? or the flight computer in MH370...
Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.
Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
Robert H. Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
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I would say your exception of someone who learned engineering at his daddy's knee would be one in a million if not more. Most engineers wouldn't be allowed to bring their kids along to work, and those who did mostly wouldn't be able to spend the time to teach their kid, even if they somehow were actually interested in it. That's why I believe IT is very different, it's something you actually can learn on your own, and you can build and test code without having supervision or other facilities. Certainly the lack of people who have the ability to really think through a solution is a problem in all fields, not just engineering, however the consequences in engineering are generally much more severe, as they are in medicine, hence the additional requirements. Nobody is going to not hire a whizkid programmer because he or she has no degree (unless, of course, it's a stupid development aid RFP), but that is most definitely the case with the other professions. And while there can obviously be consequences from bad programming, the responsibility for the project would be a more senior level person who is likely an engineer - in the West certainly they would be just due to liability considerations.OrangeDragon wrote:This applies to IT as well... the ability to 'think' the solution rather than find it. It's why I have difficulty finding good developers anymore, because so many are 'i hear IT pays well, I'll go learn that!' versus people who 'think like a programmer'. But it's not exclusive to something you learn in a school... and if it took a school to teach it to you, that's fine, but don't discount those who were already able to think that way from the start and didn't need it. Some of what you listed, like the need for lab you couldn't get without a school, i agree with to some degree but that's also where that interning/apprenticing comes in. take a guy who's father was an engineer, and who ate/shat/slept/breathed engineering his whole life... does he need a lab or is the time he spent in the field working with his old man sufficient, and likely superior.Jacked Camry wrote:Would I have been able to do that without having been put under the pressure and without the intense guidance? Possibly. But probably not, and they limit the course to those who demonstrate they have the academic basis to make it and deliberately weed out those who can't and those who can't handle the stress because they believe a profession that has people's lives resting on the decisions they make should be exclusive to those who are exceptional compared to the norm.
And IT has a number of lives resting on it as well... who do you think wrote the firmware in some of that equipment you're using? or the software than plans the train schedules for that subway you're building? or the flight computer in MH370...
While I respect your having pulled yourself up with your own bootstraps to become a successful programmer/businessman, you have to understand that this is simply not realistic for the more structured professions like engineering or medicine.
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If I want a computer fixed/ a programme written, I'd get OD, and up until I read this I didn't know whether he went to university or not. It's irrelevant to me, I know he knows what he's doing, and that's all that matters to me as a customer.
I would, however, agree with JC regarding civil/electrical/mechanical engineering and medical science.
Before someone asks, I don't think that one need s a degree to be a teacher, but if one lies about it, then they're not trustworthy.
I also agree, and I've said this many times starting years ago, that for many employers, the fact that someone applied themselves and submitted to discipline for 3 or 4 years is in itself valuable.
I admire people who can self-educate themselves and start their own profitable businesses, it takes special people to do that.
Perhaps we should consider each situation on its merits?
I would, however, agree with JC regarding civil/electrical/mechanical engineering and medical science.
Before someone asks, I don't think that one need s a degree to be a teacher, but if one lies about it, then they're not trustworthy.
I also agree, and I've said this many times starting years ago, that for many employers, the fact that someone applied themselves and submitted to discipline for 3 or 4 years is in itself valuable.
I admire people who can self-educate themselves and start their own profitable businesses, it takes special people to do that.
Perhaps we should consider each situation on its merits?
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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