There's still honor amongst thieves?... cool.metaleap wrote:Why, anyone you can pay handsomely to do so.. best ask a forger, they might forward you to the right person!RainMan wrote:With the high standard of art forgery, who authenticates pricey Cambodian art?
Foreigner to buy a flat/apartment in Phnom Penh
- RainMan
- K440 Defender of the Faith
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Never mind.
Legitimate question. Well, frankly, there is no "pricey" Khmer Modern/Contemporary Art. Yet. There are many examples of fantastically expensive antique Khmer art, but anything post-UN? Nope.RainMan wrote:Good info and links re: buying flat/apartment, thanks for that and congrats on your venture Dag the man, hope it goes well and looking fwd to the pics.
Investing big in any venture has risks/sleepless nights, even websites ( ) but when it goes well, what a buzz.
Just to throw a spanner in art investment wheel, who can reliably certify the originality of a painting in Cambodia?
I ask as I bought a Charles Billich signed sketch once from a lady who was moving and she swore it was original, the frame itself was worth the small price I paid for it but the sketch was not cataloged any where, hence she didn't know the price or have the time to investigate. Cut to the chase, I had it certified and valued at 250 times what I paid. Still have it 15 yrs later.
With the high standard of art forgery, who authenticates pricey Cambodian art?
Ridiculously low prices. For example, Svay Ken, arguably the most famous and prominent artist of the past 20 years, is selling now for a paltry bargain priced $2000. to $3000. Dumb prices. In VN, Thailand and even Burma the prices are much higher - even for young emerging Contemporary artists.
Right now the most expensive artist, who is really 90% American - 10% Khmer and just happens to have Khmer parents, is Sopheap Pich. Highly educated at an elite art school and largely raised in the US, he made a clever move a few years ago and returned to his "quasi-roots" and hired a large crew to make his bamboo/rattan sculptures that are completely derivative from previous US artists. He is very commercially successful and his pieces, as he declares he is a true "Khmer making Khmer Art" (he also paints), sell for well over $10 - $50K. Aside from him (and a seriously talented 90% French - 10% Khmer artist named Maline), there is a small group of natives (Seckon, Tevi, Chath, i.e.) who sell mostly for $500 - $3,000. Pocket change in the "real art world".
In contrast, you can't get anything of significance by any "known" artist anywhere else in SE Asia at those prices. It's a nascent, slowly growing Contemporary Art scene here with a severely limited pool of talent. It is exceedingly difficult for young artists to "emerge" and feed/house/clothe themselves through selling their own work (the art education here is terrible as opposed to VN where the art academies are very rigorous).
So...authentication dilemmas don't exist here for the moment re: Modern/Contemporary Art. Antiquities? Fraught with huge intractable issues of authenticity.
I love fish and chips with vinegar in newspaper!!!
On the Contemporary Art subject here in the Kingdom some might be interested to know about the "Elephant In The Room" quandary. This complex situation concerns the problematic relationship between the native producers and the foreign consumers.
For the art community, like any community, to thrive - it needs funding. In developing countries, the natives that have $$ are usually newly-minted criminals (of all stripes and uniforms) who embark on a drunken orgy of buying trophy consumer goods that "shout out" their status to the hoi polloi - the heaving stinking unfortunate masses. Flashy cars/SUV's, wedding-cake kitsch houses, pounds of gold jewelry draping their fat necks, etc. It takes years, often decades for the rich to attain any level of real "sophistication" or "informed taste".
So who drives the art market then? Who buys the art? Who organizes the art exhibition spaces? Who publicizes, writes about, promotes, documents, etc. the artwork by the natives. Only foreigners. But there is often a resentment and lingering bad taste from "Colonialism" (understandably) about this total reliance on foreign taste-makers and gate-keepers. Still, without the foreigners, nothing would happen. Nothing. The native "potential art supporting community" have no money, no art experience, no galleries, no museums, and no resources. Hence, the private commercial market forces come to play along with NGO's, some Embassies to fill the void and a "scene emerges".
Interestingly, as the natives become more educated, experienced and sophisticated they begin to take over some of the reins. China is a prime example of this natural transition. The Kleptocrats and Thugs and Corrupt Cronies and even the very few Semi-Legitimate Entrepreneurs are finally coming around to recognizing that their very own backyard Contemporary artists are a national "source of pride" and, most importantly, a great investment. Before no yellow slant-eyed crooks bought Chinese Contemporary Art, now they outnumber the round-eyed smelly foreigners at the auctions and galleries.
Hopefully this will happen here too eventually. The uber-rich nasty Khmers will wake up, look around and start to support the incredible energy, vitality and creativity of their own young artists. Maybe...because the Khmer artists deserve this respect and recognition from their better-off countrymen, no matter how evil the rich are.
For the art community, like any community, to thrive - it needs funding. In developing countries, the natives that have $$ are usually newly-minted criminals (of all stripes and uniforms) who embark on a drunken orgy of buying trophy consumer goods that "shout out" their status to the hoi polloi - the heaving stinking unfortunate masses. Flashy cars/SUV's, wedding-cake kitsch houses, pounds of gold jewelry draping their fat necks, etc. It takes years, often decades for the rich to attain any level of real "sophistication" or "informed taste".
So who drives the art market then? Who buys the art? Who organizes the art exhibition spaces? Who publicizes, writes about, promotes, documents, etc. the artwork by the natives. Only foreigners. But there is often a resentment and lingering bad taste from "Colonialism" (understandably) about this total reliance on foreign taste-makers and gate-keepers. Still, without the foreigners, nothing would happen. Nothing. The native "potential art supporting community" have no money, no art experience, no galleries, no museums, and no resources. Hence, the private commercial market forces come to play along with NGO's, some Embassies to fill the void and a "scene emerges".
Interestingly, as the natives become more educated, experienced and sophisticated they begin to take over some of the reins. China is a prime example of this natural transition. The Kleptocrats and Thugs and Corrupt Cronies and even the very few Semi-Legitimate Entrepreneurs are finally coming around to recognizing that their very own backyard Contemporary artists are a national "source of pride" and, most importantly, a great investment. Before no yellow slant-eyed crooks bought Chinese Contemporary Art, now they outnumber the round-eyed smelly foreigners at the auctions and galleries.
Hopefully this will happen here too eventually. The uber-rich nasty Khmers will wake up, look around and start to support the incredible energy, vitality and creativity of their own young artists. Maybe...because the Khmer artists deserve this respect and recognition from their better-off countrymen, no matter how evil the rich are.
I love fish and chips with vinegar in newspaper!!!
wtf.. le sigh.. Dagenham performing another "shotgun analysis" Chinese in my view especially have never lost their strong feelings of respect and preservation of their own ancient grand old pre-Mao culture, art etc. Similarly most Khmers of all stripes have a huge hard-on for everything Khmer-made and Angkorian and their history, culture, and arts. Sure all the "new rich", tycoon etc. love to race around their SUVs and show off their colorful mansions but imagine them toiling it out in their youth in the 80s in the jungles or "SoViet Phnom Penh" and I can totally grasp their tastes on display and it doesn't necessarily mean they have no love at all for local artists. I concede that you have a much better grasp on and bigger insight into the local arts scene than me (frankly and regrettably I'm not very interested or invested in it) but it's virtually guaranteed not to be quite as extremely clear-cut/black&white as you once again make it out to be..Dagenham wrote:Interestingly, as the natives become more educated, experienced and sophisticated they begin to take over some of the reins. China is a prime example of this natural transition. The Kleptocrats and Thugs and Corrupt Cronies and even the very few Semi-Legitimate Entrepreneurs are finally coming around to recognizing that their very own backyard Contemporary artists are a national "source of pride" and, most importantly, a great investment. Before no yellow slant-eyed crooks bought Chinese Contemporary Art, now they outnumber the round-eyed smelly foreigners at the auctions and galleries.
now that according to IMF as of 9th Oct China just overtook the US as the world's largest economy, we can probably accept that in the majority, Chinese entrepreneurs are an industrious lot, competition there is still/increasingly healthily fierce, corruption is visibly and actionably being tackled for the first time on a grand scale unprecedented for China. Not all is rosy in China and I don't have much love for the place myself tbh, and they f_cked up so many things so many times "on the road from there to here", but let's fairly acknowledge how they keep strengthening in all kinds of areas at a rapid pace. They're like a rocket ship! They take off the ground and the world says "no big deal, that's the easy part". They reach airliner altitude and everyone goes "about time you folks get up here, what took you so long". They pass the moon and all say "now you're just copying us again, how lame". Off to Mars and beyond and we'll all scratch our heads, "these guys are onto something, how did we not notice, the sneaky lot" anyway, all I'm saying is at the pace of China, any cliche that's more than 1 year old is already outdated or will be in less than a few more years. So this:Dagenham wrote:Kleptocrats and Thugs and Corrupt Cronies and even the very few Semi-Legitimate Entrepreneurs
is a fine judgement of Cambodia, or of China in the past years. But you don't get to where China is already with that mix, or Cambodia would be there too.Dagenham wrote:Kleptocrats and Thugs and Corrupt Cronies and even the very few Semi-Legitimate Entrepreneurs
- Barang_doa_slae
- cannonballer
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On the old hard title/soft title subject, I don't think Scobienz understands that soft title recognized ownership can be as solid as hard titled ones. 80% of Cambodia is still "soft titled".
Of course you can hear many stories.. Including the one I've seen on several occasions when a land has different ownership claims from different hard title holder individuals.
For me the rule of thumbs is the following: in a city center I would go for hard title only if it is a plot of land and would need to seriously look at the family owning the ground floor if buying upper floors out of the legally recognized special hard titles. However deeper in some province it really depends how well you know the environment, people etc.
I have owned and still do some large valuable plots that are soft titled and sleep perfectly at night.
Moreover I have already sold some of my properties (either hard titled and soft titled). On one particularly lucky occasion I saw a 250% return on my investment over an 18 months time frame for a very sizeable amount (edited. :six figures when bought, seven figures when sold).
For people like Dag, myself and many others, Cambodia is home no matter what. Investing here (as locals do) is therefore deemed as more natural and less stressful that back in the western world and the possible return comparison a no brainer anyway.
Of course you can hear many stories.. Including the one I've seen on several occasions when a land has different ownership claims from different hard title holder individuals.
For me the rule of thumbs is the following: in a city center I would go for hard title only if it is a plot of land and would need to seriously look at the family owning the ground floor if buying upper floors out of the legally recognized special hard titles. However deeper in some province it really depends how well you know the environment, people etc.
I have owned and still do some large valuable plots that are soft titled and sleep perfectly at night.
Moreover I have already sold some of my properties (either hard titled and soft titled). On one particularly lucky occasion I saw a 250% return on my investment over an 18 months time frame for a very sizeable amount (edited. :six figures when bought, seven figures when sold).
For people like Dag, myself and many others, Cambodia is home no matter what. Investing here (as locals do) is therefore deemed as more natural and less stressful that back in the western world and the possible return comparison a no brainer anyway.
Last edited by Barang_doa_slae on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
From metaleap: "I concede that you have a much better grasp on and bigger insight into the local arts scene than me (frankly and regrettably I'm not very interested or invested in it) but it's virtually guaranteed not to be quite as extremely clear-cut/black&white as you once again make it out to be."
In fact, you don't know anything at all about the situation here - as you openly admit. I do as I've been deeply involved here for many years now. And whatever you "think" you know about the Chinese "Contemporary Art" scene is "0". You probably can't name one artist. Need I say more? I, also, am well-versed and knowledgeable about the situation in China re: "Contemporary Art". Reread my posts, Mate.
"Contemporary Art" is the topic - not Chinese heritage. Slow down, skim less and read carefully.
And even with so-called "Chinese Heritage" and cultural artifacts the Chinese are very inconsistent. They love and cherish some forms and dismiss and toss aside others. They have completely obliterated most "Chinese Heritage" architecture in the major cities in the pell-mell rush to riches and development. Hello? They do love their old jade, master silk paintings and Ming vases though.
In fact, you don't know anything at all about the situation here - as you openly admit. I do as I've been deeply involved here for many years now. And whatever you "think" you know about the Chinese "Contemporary Art" scene is "0". You probably can't name one artist. Need I say more? I, also, am well-versed and knowledgeable about the situation in China re: "Contemporary Art". Reread my posts, Mate.
"Contemporary Art" is the topic - not Chinese heritage. Slow down, skim less and read carefully.
And even with so-called "Chinese Heritage" and cultural artifacts the Chinese are very inconsistent. They love and cherish some forms and dismiss and toss aside others. They have completely obliterated most "Chinese Heritage" architecture in the major cities in the pell-mell rush to riches and development. Hello? They do love their old jade, master silk paintings and Ming vases though.
Last edited by Dagenham on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I love fish and chips with vinegar in newspaper!!!
Merci encore. Scoby, eat crow, Dude. Here is a real live man speaking from extensive personal experience in the sector. OK, he is French, but still a human...ha! I love ya, BDS, I do...Barang_doa_slae wrote:On the old hard title/soft title subject, I don't think Scobienz understands that soft title recognized ownership can be as solid as hard titled ones. 80% of Cambodia is still "soft titled".
Of course you can hear many stories.. Including the one I've seen on several occasions when a land has different ownership claims from different hard title holder individuals.
For me the rule of thumbs is the following: in a city center I would go for hard title only if it is a plot of land and would need to seriously look at the family owning the ground floor if buying upper floors out of the legally recognized special hard titles. However deeper in some province it really depends how well you know the environment, people etc.
I have owned and still do some large valuable plots that are soft titled and sleep perfectly at night.
Moreover I have already sold some of my properties (either hard titled and soft titled). On one particularly lucky occasion I saw a 250% return on my investment over an 18 months time frame for a very sizeable amount (six 0 figure when bought, seven 0 figures when sold).
For people like Dag, myself and many others, Cambodia is home no matter what. Investing here (as locals do) is therefore deemed as more natural and less stressful that back in the western world and the possible return comparison a no brainer anyway.
So, dear brother scoby, please stop your dribbling, coughing (ahem) embarrassing expert analytical "views" on a topic you actually know fuck-all about. Makes you look bad. Why not discuss "your" own investment portfolio - ha! That is something that you know about.
I love fish and chips with vinegar in newspaper!!!
Actually I thought it was property, but I'm just idling around here boredly anyway, mostly just waiting to recover from some crap. Well I know your style of writing and discussion already, so uh whatever you sayDagenham wrote:"Contemporary Art" is the topic
Metaleap - you addressed the art/culture post of mine - clearly...weak backtracking there...try to remain on point with the topics that you have first-hand knowledge and/or experience with - if you disagree - just try to keep your replies germane to the subject at hand...critique with actual facts and data re: to Cambodia - not "in general terms"...you're smart, but seem to be very green here and have little time on the ground as of yet. So it goes...metaleap wrote:Actually I thought it was property, but I'm just idling around here boredly anyway, mostly just waiting to recover from some crap. Well I know your style of writing and discussion already, so uh whatever you sayDagenham wrote:"Contemporary Art" is the topic
I love fish and chips with vinegar in newspaper!!!
I stand by the points I made: your "shotgun analysis" cannot possibly apply as clearcut as described, we know you love to exaggerate for effect, your China perspective is positively underwhelming. And just how the heck did a childhood pic of yours leak into the net? you're gonna call this "weak backtracking" again but in this thread, over and outDagenham wrote:Metaleap - you addressed the art/culture post of mine - clearly...weak backtracking there...try to remain on point with the topics that you have first-hand knowledge and/or experience with - if you disagree - just try to keep your replies germane to the subject at hand...critique with actual facts and data re: to Cambodia - not "in general terms"...you're smart, but seem to be very green here and have little time on the ground as of yet. So it goes...metaleap wrote:Actually I thought it was property, but I'm just idling around here boredly anyway, mostly just waiting to recover from some crap. Well I know your style of writing and discussion already, so uh whatever you sayDagenham wrote:"Contemporary Art" is the topic
Meta-Dude...
Best post by you thus far - wonderful photo! Keep it up...
Stick to what you know...Cambodia you obviously don't know much about...yet...you're a keen learner...stay the course...
Best post by you thus far - wonderful photo! Keep it up...
Stick to what you know...Cambodia you obviously don't know much about...yet...you're a keen learner...stay the course...
I love fish and chips with vinegar in newspaper!!!
I don't know jack about hard/soft titles, but I do know that if you spit into the wind in Battambang, there's an 83% chance it'll hit a contemporary artist or performance artiste, either native or white.
Massive stalker
Just a simple question about soft title, Is it possible to covert a soft title to hard by paying the extra taxes on the purchase price plus the required white envelope fee to get prompt action or is this not doable? Thanks in advance if any one knows.
Also I'm rather doubtful that there would be a nationwide attempt to dispossess all barangs with soft title, must be quite a few actually living in their properties who would have to be forcibly removed, plus the uber rich who run things don't have much to gain and a hell of a lot to lose by doing this. A lot of foreigners would pull their term deposits if they saw property stolen from barangs fearing their bank accounts would be next. For those interested Vietnam is considering changing the absurd restrictions on foreign apartment ownership as very few foreigners have bought there due to silly restrictions ie; you can't rent it.
Also I'm rather doubtful that there would be a nationwide attempt to dispossess all barangs with soft title, must be quite a few actually living in their properties who would have to be forcibly removed, plus the uber rich who run things don't have much to gain and a hell of a lot to lose by doing this. A lot of foreigners would pull their term deposits if they saw property stolen from barangs fearing their bank accounts would be next. For those interested Vietnam is considering changing the absurd restrictions on foreign apartment ownership as very few foreigners have bought there due to silly restrictions ie; you can't rent it.
Dagenham wrote:
So, dear brother scoby, please stop your dribbling, coughing (ahem) embarrassing expert analytical "views" on a topic you actually know fuck-all about. Makes you look bad. Why not discuss "your" own investment portfolio - ha! That is something that you know about.
You're quite right. I know nothing about the subject, which is why i seek counsel from those who make their living advising on property law in Cambodia. I'm happy to follow that advice.
My own investment portfolio is a well diversified portfolio of various assets such as managed funds, bonds, cash, metal and a property invested in numerous markets and in a variety of currencies around the world. It does ok.
I hope your approach works out for you too.
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