Huge Issues with Phnom Penh's biggest expat school ISPP?
I haven't really properly read any of the comments since I last posted, but I may be mistaken in saying that it gave the impression that there are a lot of people earning $10 ph who think they should be earning my wage ... which is just a bit-above-average western wage at the end of the day.
There are people I know here earning in the half million range living here guys! I wouldn't mind a swimming pool with a mansion at BKK and I don't mind telling the rich c$#%s that it's their bloody round... but on the other hand, they are quite envious of my disposable time.
So, please don't take me the wrong way. 100k isn't really much in Aus at the end of the day anymore (especially after the ATO takes a crowbar to ya). The truck-drivers down at the coal mine make more money than me and they don't get smashed with uni debt either the mongrels!
There are people I know here earning in the half million range living here guys! I wouldn't mind a swimming pool with a mansion at BKK and I don't mind telling the rich c$#%s that it's their bloody round... but on the other hand, they are quite envious of my disposable time.
So, please don't take me the wrong way. 100k isn't really much in Aus at the end of the day anymore (especially after the ATO takes a crowbar to ya). The truck-drivers down at the coal mine make more money than me and they don't get smashed with uni debt either the mongrels!
Last edited by Dengchao on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't proof stuff I post here, but I did spot it before I read your post. It is a problem that I have had for many years, fortunately not the worst of them.
No doubt mate, there could be a Tefler with a Doctorate in English classics from Oxford who would definitely be able to run rings around many qualified teachers ... especially the Poi Eoi Teechurs.
People clearly aren't understanding my argument so yeah, I am leaving it.
As for ISPP, when you're number one for so long, there's only one place you can go. A bit like the Aussie Cricket team after we won the ashes for ... oh how long was it mate?
ISPP's major strength is that it's parent-propriety. Therefore they have a fierce loyalty to the place. Bored rich expat housewives with a lot of time and money on their hands. It is this rather peculiar form of governance that will probably see that it remains afloat.
I won't mention the amount of money I heard they'd lost on a property deal because it was just something I heard on the grapevine and am unable to verify (not that I could be bothered anyway).
No doubt mate, there could be a Tefler with a Doctorate in English classics from Oxford who would definitely be able to run rings around many qualified teachers ... especially the Poi Eoi Teechurs.
People clearly aren't understanding my argument so yeah, I am leaving it.
As for ISPP, when you're number one for so long, there's only one place you can go. A bit like the Aussie Cricket team after we won the ashes for ... oh how long was it mate?
ISPP's major strength is that it's parent-propriety. Therefore they have a fierce loyalty to the place. Bored rich expat housewives with a lot of time and money on their hands. It is this rather peculiar form of governance that will probably see that it remains afloat.
I won't mention the amount of money I heard they'd lost on a property deal because it was just something I heard on the grapevine and am unable to verify (not that I could be bothered anyway).
Oh! Hang on! I have proof you're mistaken (yet again mate, where was Hillary from?):KL&fool wrote: No half-decent EFL teacher would make such a mistake with elementary English. We have an eye (and an ear) for such things. I'm not pointing this out to show off or put you down, simply to underline the fact that EFL teachers (decent ones) shouldn't be denigrated in the way that you have done above.
...
Is it your round or mine? I must owe you three for every game of chess that I lost!
As I've witnessed only one tefler in a classroom over the course of an hour (she had a Master's of Tefl... don't know what that requires); I have one single solitary anecdote to draw on, and she did way worse than there/their in the first ten minutes... in front of a cohort! I wouldn't make a there/their mistake in front of kids, they deserve better than K440ers
[nb: I only saw her and wish to impugn no others at all]
There was quite a marked difference to anything I'd witnessed in my career prior to that day: She was virtually completely beholden to the workbook and teacher guidebook she'd brought along. There even seemed to be a lesson plan provided for her; this must have instructed her to insert a CD at one stage when it was certainly more difficult and disruptive to the pace of the contact time to hook it up on my computer than if she'd just paraphrased what the audio said. It was certainly the first and last 100% workbook/teacher book lead class I'd seen in my whole career.
[PLEASE don't read into this everyone! I only have one anecdote on a TEFLer and I've reported it here without exaggeration or embellishment - so please don't take this as a personal attack because I don't even know you. The reason I'm relaying this anecdote is in answer to KL's position]
Anyway, this Masters Tefler explained to the students that we use an 'explaination mark' to indicate excitation in a sentence! I called her over and asked her to correct this mistake when discretion allowed. She argued that she was correct; it took my presentation of the dictionary before she relented and changed it (with little grace or respect for the fact that she was a guest in my domain - in my mind definitely for the last time by this stage).
[This is not an invitation to provide anecdotes on professionals that you thought were rubbish, I am not meaning this as an entry to a pissing contest... really!]
She was a senior Australian lady and had a 'masters' in Tefl which she was very proud of (she would be in here swinging with Vlad right now for sure). It would be a safe bet to say that she certainly believed herself well and truly above 'half decent.' In fact, she probably thought she was going to show me a thing or two when she walked in there... she did.
She showed me was that she had very little eye for detail and I think it a safe bet that there are quite a few of her victims now explaining what they hoped to exclaim.
[NB: I am only maligning one individual here, she lives in a different country and she is not a BM. I certainly voiced my opinion about her through proper channels and I told her about her error to her face in the first instance]. I didn't make it a secret that I was the reason she was banished from the upper school so she could do ABCs with EL the day after she was in front of me.
So, you might be off track if my one and only witnessing of a tefl class may be admitted as evidence. Nonetheless, I am embarrassed about my mistake ( I make that shitful little one a lot when I'm typing fast. Anyway, this is not a class, just K440).
I once busted quite a few senior students in Aus for plagiarism in a summative essay... It was only after I'd written in big red letters "PLAIGARISED" across the miscreants' papers that I realised my mistake and had to grab them back before they made it to the boss' office.
So yeah, I'm not infallible, no doubt there are greater linguists amongst the tefl industry than I; but I never proclaimed blanket superiority over an entire workforce! I just want Vlad to show our industry some respect.
If you think I am ranting in order to malign all teflers, then this is a misinterpretation:
Please go back and pour over my rants from the beginning. You will note that if Vladimir hadn't compared himself to the head of ISPP in a tone that suggested collegiality he would not have received the response I gave him. He then drew inferences upon my statements which I answered, perhaps attacked, in turn.
I have a great lot of difficulty not responding to his idiotic statements [NOT because he Tefls, just because he really seems like a complete twit judging by other things I've read from him and heard him say]. I've ignored everyone else here bar KL and Hemingway.
***
A bloke like Vlad (I have actually met him, but didn't identify myself of course) who goes around placing himself at the level of professional western Heads is just about the worst insult I could conceive of. The bloke would raise hackles if he went into a Western school for a job as a groundsman.
Hearing a ... person ... like him asserting that he was just as good, and more often than not better, than professionals would have been insulting if it were not so ridiculous. He voices, here and no doubt elsewhere, his opinion that a degree or a professional qualification is 'just a piece of paper.'
Thus, with one idiotic utterance, he insults everyone who has invested the time, money and effort to gain professional credentials. So, I am sorry if I've insulted anyone here other than Vlad; please understand this is a culmination of frustration that is not confined to this thread. I am retaliating at his insolent disregard for our profession.
The basis he provides to prove that he, although unqualified, is just as good as any professional regardless of their five-six years of study, practice and screening for registration:
Subjective and ill-formed perceptions from his own experience as a tefler in countries desperate enough to take him with schools that can not afford any better.
To wit: he regaled me with a story or two about professionals he'd witnessed that were, in his opinion, in no way up to his standards! This breathtaking arrogance was so incredible and facile that I entertained for a moment the thought that he may have been suffering a mental illness, or perhaps an alcohol-induced neural degeneration.
If Vlad ever managed to get through security and come to my work to observe my performance, I know for certain that I would make no attempt to impress him with anything other than the imminence of forcible expulsion from my workspace if he didn't bugger straight off.
During our brief meeting he made similar assertions that he makes here and elsewhere: that one doesn't need a degree to be a good teacher; he'd rather employ a bloke that had a criminal record check than the holder of an Ed D., that he's observed enough teachers to know that it's got nothing to do with the wisdom of generations, but his wisdom alone! and... <blah blah blah>.
I didn't argue with him because I don't get into verbal arguments based on anecdotes and unprofessional subjective opinions from people who have a motivation to see things the way they would like them to be.
I refuse to explain to blokes like him how my job differs as I know I will be countered with irrelevant comparisons (like that bloke did with the registration reqs before).
[NB: that bloke, I don't think there's much point me pointing out the existence, purpose and nature of professional registration bodies; guilds; commercial associations etc. in western societies anymore matey. If you weren't stone-walling me I'm sure you'd have the faculty to understand; you are not unintelligent]
If Vlad had the slightest conception of how far he falls short of a western head, he would not be pontificating as he does. It's beyond him because he's either wilfully or cognitively in a profound state of ignorance.
No Western head of school will ever sit down and explain the difference in their profession and his job. It would be like an evolutionary scientist sitting down with an intelligent design proponent; they just won't go down to that level. It's simply beneath their dignity.
[NB: Please don't think that I am saying that TEFLERs believe in Intelligent design or that I am drawing a hierarchy or anything of the sort. My fight is not with the tefl industry! I have mates who are/were in it. I would have done it as a younger bloke if I were a traveller then!]
I can articulate my disdain at this bloke and the few of his ilk with greater affect via this media (this may answer the chicken-lady's question) because it is important to many professionals that our livelihood is not eroded, that persons such as the one I've dwelt upon do not represent themselves as western professionals to an international audience....
SO: I certainly didn't mean to denigrate all Teflers; even if I may have thrown some blanket statements on teflers that was really meant for Vlad
I have seen that he has a way of rallying troops around him (he's really good at it as can be witnessed in this thread; I didn't notice he'd done it until it was too late); my bloody-mindedness has, I'm sure, provided him with a few more imaginary feathers in his imaginary hat.
I do admit that I've lashed out in such a way that reasonable others may have felt offended by. I accept responsibility for this and apologise if you are among them.
If you could please consider the offence that those with uninformed attitudes such as Vlad cause members of our profession, then I hope you can understand my position. We (myself and more than one colleague) are loathe to tell people our profession as we will be thought of in a different light than we went to great lengths to earn in the West.
Imagine Vlad turning up to a doctor's dinner with a First-Aid Certificate and telling them that a degree is just a piece of paper and their professional body is just an imaginary ivory tower... and then telling them his opinion on the open heart surgery he'd witnessed!
Imagine him at the builder's guild telling the foreman he is bad at his job and he knows because he has a qualification in robotics.
imagine him rocking into a UN agency and telling them how to do their job because he has a degree in Astrophysics.
Why doesn't he tell the publicans that he knows just as much as them about their business because he worked as a restaurant manager once... JM, do you volunteer?!
It's just an insult! Especially when you meet the bloke. It's an embarrassment that there are people of his calibre over here insisting they are western professionals. Not just for me, not just for teachers, but for more than a few westerners.
[NOTE: I know that most Teflers are not in this boat. I personally know teflers who represent the west far better than I do! But there is a sizeable minority, such as some of those raising their heads now, that we really don't deserve to be associated with!}
Am I really being unreasonable? I say no.
***
KL - ANYWAY, I know you teach IGCSE mate, you're a QT aren't you?
Anyway, you're a case in point, your English is far better than mine (I haven't studied it as a discreet unit since grade 12, I have only taught literature to Juniors in Aus which wasn't bad, but it's a little dry compared to the humanities); however, I believe that my History may be better than yours, especially after I imparted a few gems of knowledge about the contributions of the Dominions to the Empire, yes?
What have the Aussies and Kiwis done for us indeed!
***
Chess: Have you been practicing? Have you got a chess.com account yet? We can play some casual games through that WITH a clock!
OR, tomorrow lunch is wide open ... I'll give you my Queen off the bat. Let's make it interesting.
My phone is buggered, so I may not have your number, but I still have the same.
But en-passant is in from now on.
Did you ever source that set?
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well, it's a good thing you stated you ignored everyone but KL and Hemmingway (and Vlad of course), as otherwise I'd feel obliged to read your entire essay submitted above.
However, I now understand your gripe.
However, I now understand your gripe.
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
- Plutarch
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Dengchao, I did NOT compare myself to the head of ISPP.
One does not have to be qualified to notice widespread problems, or does one have to do an Australian degree in that, too?
You have repeatedly implied that I have stated that I am academically qualified to be a school director/ teacher in a country like Australia. That is untrue, and you know it. I have a genuine degree in a subject relevant to my profession, and, for what it's worth, the dreaded TEFL certificate. Tremble in your insecure typo-laden boots!
I stated that I had been a school director previously and thus had a slightly better understanding of what people in this position have to put up with. Your ranting, beer-inspired argument is based on the premise that because one needs certain qualifications in Australia, a lesser/ locally qualified or employed person is not able to do the job. It's an assumption based on stupid logic, and if you can't see that you shouldn't be a teacher. Your problem is that people like you (thank God, not many) are concerned about losing money to lesser-qualified people. You should, in fact, be criticising the employers if you are really stupid enough to believe that no one without your qualifications can teach.
Your silly mistakes are not just typographical; they show that your thinking/ concentration is not 100%. That's fine, we all make mistakes, but the problem arises when you tout yourself as some kind of genius.
You might wish to forget it, but we all learn continually. At one stage you were unqualified. Does this mean that you could not ever be teacher material? According to your standards, yes.
Your attacks on me are nothing more nor less than personal, dust in the wind.
I feel sorry for your students if any of this moronic arrogance comes through in the classroom (when you're not sneaking off, nice ethics btw)
You gave me credit for rallying people; I cannot accept the credit for two reasons:
1. I'm not qualified as a rallyer
2. You deserve ALL the credit, it's hard work showing your true puerile nature whilst claiming the moral high ground, but you did it!
Now, can we get back on topic, I have a degree in that...
Little man.
One does not have to be qualified to notice widespread problems, or does one have to do an Australian degree in that, too?
You have repeatedly implied that I have stated that I am academically qualified to be a school director/ teacher in a country like Australia. That is untrue, and you know it. I have a genuine degree in a subject relevant to my profession, and, for what it's worth, the dreaded TEFL certificate. Tremble in your insecure typo-laden boots!
I stated that I had been a school director previously and thus had a slightly better understanding of what people in this position have to put up with. Your ranting, beer-inspired argument is based on the premise that because one needs certain qualifications in Australia, a lesser/ locally qualified or employed person is not able to do the job. It's an assumption based on stupid logic, and if you can't see that you shouldn't be a teacher. Your problem is that people like you (thank God, not many) are concerned about losing money to lesser-qualified people. You should, in fact, be criticising the employers if you are really stupid enough to believe that no one without your qualifications can teach.
Your silly mistakes are not just typographical; they show that your thinking/ concentration is not 100%. That's fine, we all make mistakes, but the problem arises when you tout yourself as some kind of genius.
You might wish to forget it, but we all learn continually. At one stage you were unqualified. Does this mean that you could not ever be teacher material? According to your standards, yes.
Your attacks on me are nothing more nor less than personal, dust in the wind.
I feel sorry for your students if any of this moronic arrogance comes through in the classroom (when you're not sneaking off, nice ethics btw)
You gave me credit for rallying people; I cannot accept the credit for two reasons:
1. I'm not qualified as a rallyer
2. You deserve ALL the credit, it's hard work showing your true puerile nature whilst claiming the moral high ground, but you did it!
Now, can we get back on topic, I have a degree in that...
Little man.
Last edited by vladimir on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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The debate about what is right and wrong in written and spoken English boils down to the ongoing and unending debate between the teachings of Professor the Lord Quirk - his actual title - who is on the side of PRESCRIPTIVE on the one hand, versus the doctrines espoused by Professor Pinker of M.I.T., who argues in favor of DESCRIPTIVE, cheerfully asserting that English is and always has been a mess and is always changing.
Even literate people in Barbados and County Mayo might remark that they catched a cold, only to be sharply told by Quirk and the serried ranks of other LANGUAGE MAVENS (to quote Pinker) that the way they, their family, their friends and all the members of their community express themselves is "wrong" and ungrammatical and slipshod and that they ought to stand in the corner until playtime.
Possession of bona fide qualifications reassures potential employers but has surprisingly little to do with teaching ability. Anyone who has acquired both a P.G.C.E. and a CELTA will confirm that the second is by far the more useful, even if the former is the more marketable commodity. In practice, the P.G.C.E. involves a term of teaching practice in whichever school is willing to accept some poor ninny willing to be dumped with the nastiest classes. Not a few P.G.C.E. candidates simply desert after a week or two. Some have nervous breakdowns and enrich the makers of Vallium.
A great deal of this discussion, acrimonious and ill-spirited exchanges between anonymous keyboard warriors, seems a pointless digression from the original subject, the virtues and shortcomings of I.S.P.P.'arguably the most prestigious school for the children of well-paid expatriates and the Cambodian elite.
ISPP is the flagship employer here and and can pick and choose among eager applicants for employment. No more need be said.
Even literate people in Barbados and County Mayo might remark that they catched a cold, only to be sharply told by Quirk and the serried ranks of other LANGUAGE MAVENS (to quote Pinker) that the way they, their family, their friends and all the members of their community express themselves is "wrong" and ungrammatical and slipshod and that they ought to stand in the corner until playtime.
Possession of bona fide qualifications reassures potential employers but has surprisingly little to do with teaching ability. Anyone who has acquired both a P.G.C.E. and a CELTA will confirm that the second is by far the more useful, even if the former is the more marketable commodity. In practice, the P.G.C.E. involves a term of teaching practice in whichever school is willing to accept some poor ninny willing to be dumped with the nastiest classes. Not a few P.G.C.E. candidates simply desert after a week or two. Some have nervous breakdowns and enrich the makers of Vallium.
A great deal of this discussion, acrimonious and ill-spirited exchanges between anonymous keyboard warriors, seems a pointless digression from the original subject, the virtues and shortcomings of I.S.P.P.'arguably the most prestigious school for the children of well-paid expatriates and the Cambodian elite.
ISPP is the flagship employer here and and can pick and choose among eager applicants for employment. No more need be said.
Vlad, I'm going to use your quotes in one last final effort to get my point across to you. Violet understands me now. I doubt you will, but here goes:
2] you'd need to be allowed to work in ISPP to notice these problems. You will never be allowed in, if you were, I think they'd be quite annoyed at your detection of their problems
3] can you quote me? I said that you imply it on a frequent basis
4 (1st)] Right mate, why didn't you specify where you were a director? As an Australian stating that phrase, you are misleading people into thinking that you were a professional with a much more complex job (yes it is Vlad, you just don't know it because you haven't done it) with a far higher salary.
4] YES! By poaching our professional title you are eroding our prospects and have severely tarnished our collective reputation. In the meantime, calling your job title as the identical western equivalent does nothing to lift your wages.
And there's the other side you don't get: one of my colleagues who on his first contract in Asia told me that he'd never been in a place where saying that you are a teacher makes people's body expression instantly sour. As stated, it may only be 10% of teflers who poison the well, but it should not be poison placed in our well which was doing just fine before the tefl phenomenon... it was mate.
You don't see that but WE DO EVERYDAY and it hurts... it really hurts that the professional title that I have worked so hard for is a dirty word around here.
Here's the Kicker: you say that I am arrogant, elitist, a prick whatever for insisting that unqualified teachers who work as teachers over here (where it is not a profession) choose a different job title!
Can't you see that it's you that is buggering up what we have worked for by taking a title you have no right to?! YOU are damaging US, not the other way around at all!
ALL I ASK IS LAY OF THE TITLE. I don't give a shit about your qualifications etc or how good you think your class-craft is. I REALLY REALLY DON'T!
I wouldn't care if you called yourself any other title at all, but 'teacher' implies professional accreditation when you nominate it as your vocation - the B Ed is one of many pre-requisites for this accreditation. You may not even be awarded registration after you've got it.
It is fine to say that you are working as a teacher. This is not invoking professional status upon yourself.
Every time I tell someone a teacher, they ask, something like: but are you a real teacher. I have to state firmly that I am. Then I feel like a prick, but WE are the ones who have been wronged! How many lawyers, nurses, accountants (all professionals in the West just as a teacher is) have to go through this everytime they answer the question that typically comes up very early in an introductory conversation?
5] Can you quote me where I said that I am a genius?
6] Yes, once I was unqualified. Never once did I call myself a 'teacher' because I was not one. I only told people that I was a teacher when my rego was in hand. Even when I was prac teaching I nominated myself as a student-teacher. To claim profession that is not earned is completely charlatan; I have never been guilty of this
- obviously I had the potential or I wouldn't be sitting on the wicket I'm on now or any of the wickets I've been on previously
- according to my logic ... doesn't even make sense
WHERE YOU ARE AT FAULT: you say that I reckon people without qualifications don't have the ability to be a good teacher; but I did not.
What I said is that you are not a teacher.
If you have your undergrad already, why not head back and get the dip Ed done, do your intern year, then come on back to a top tier? You would make the money you lost in the two years of study back in your first year as a professional!
You'd be happy with the massive pay hike. I'd be happy that you're true to the bill.
WHERE we are now is that you say you know what makes a good teacher in practice (and at least imply that I think it's all about papers)... BUT YOU ARE NOT A TEACHER AND I AM!
So I think you're really stepping out of line in this case mate. I know that you don't believe this, but we get paid so much more because our experience and training is so much greater. It's not just about the bit of paper mate. We have to do a lot of things to get those pieces of paper and we must conduct ourselves very well indeed. We are held to a higher standard of behaviour than most other citizens; this is fair enough of course.
If you don't agree then you insult us all. You don't know what a western professional's job is because you have never been admitted as one or worked as one. The standards are FAR FAR FAR higher than what anyone could expect from a $10ph casual worker.
- Either I earn in a week what you do in a month because I have a credential and you don't ... OR ...
- My standard of practice is many times better.
I reckon you, and some others, think the former is obviously true Vlad, but I am telling you that you are obviously wrong. There is MUCH more to running an International standard school and curriculum that you have the foggiest notion of.
-They limit their applicants to Western professionals because we provide a very high standard of education.
- parents pay tens of thousands of dollars because of what we empower their kids to do. They probably don't have a clue about our creds.
- jobs are often taken 7-8 months prior to start. Competition for the best professionals at Search and other fairs is fierce. There is no turning up to places the day before you start. It's full-on heavy lifting mate.
I don't bother looking for your grammar mistakes mate because I know any top-tier school in the world would take my resume over yours even if the credentials were cast aside. Myself and all the other professionals you tarnish with your attitude really are at a level of polish that gives us the market power we deserve.
So, do you really know what makes a 'great' teacher Vlad? I'm sure you have a fair idea, I'm not saying that you're incapable of forming a sound opinion... but I bet I know better than you on this subject. This is because my employment record, awards, exit aggregates, word of mouth, and high regard from parents, kids and faculty say the same thing: I am a truly great teacher... I won't bring in wage differences here because I am confident without the need to invoke them... but I command them. Other teachers with the same length of service rarely do.
IF that sounds arrogant then I hope you will pause and reflect for a moment Vlad. I am reacting to what I perceive to be your presumption that your experience is anywhere near mine; I hope I am wrong in perceiving your attitude that I am not really worth my wage [or that you are worth the same or more]. I find this so offensive.
If you're feeling offended too then I don't think you have a clue about the extremely demanding work found at the top academies on the international scene. They are actually spearheads for societies betterment rather than what many jealous people reckon they are.
7] No, it's not personal for the fifth time. I will curb my "attacks" (I think of them as criticisms) on you when you stop taking liberties with my title.
8] The many many senior students that have thrived under me and are now doing medicine in Oxford, Law in ANU etc are excellent kids mate and I love being part of their journey. They accept me as a top academic teacher (which my records have unfailingly attested). I was granted exit classes (G12) as a second year teacher, there were many in the faculty who never got near a senior class even after a decade. I am really good at my profession mate and I take a lot of pride in the excellent aggregates that I never fail to produce.
I know that you will never be let in to one of these classes unless you become a professional and inspire enough confidence in academia to be given a senior class. These are the classes I truly adore and I have typically managed to get 3 our of 5 such classes... this is because the professional admin had a massive amount of faith in my professional ability.
You have no right whatsoever to make any comment on my professionalism even if you had the first clue about me. More than likely you'd find yourself under my line if you ever get into a school I work at... I have seniority, glowing professional references, the highest GPA in both years of Post-Grad Ed, and a brilliant achievement average from my senior classes.
Thanks for telling me about my ethics. Teachers in Aus CAN leave at 3:30 quite legally, it's just not a great look to be going out the door at the same time as the kids; discretely leaving is better. We usually hang around for an hour or so afterwards... you would know this if you had a professional western background. At any rate, you have impugned me unfairly resultant of your own lack of understanding which is a result of your lack of experience as a professional.
BUT:
Not saying you don't have the ability! I have not said that. I say you do not have the profession. Your job is classified as neither a profession nor trade in this country. It is entry level work that carries no title other than Mr Vlad.
9] I've met you and I know I tower over you in more ways than you can think of... but I won't insult you champ!
* Why don't you just go back and get accredited? Have you got a smudge? You'd be surprised that you can get away with a few really little things from long ago or things that have been decriminalised subsequent to the act. I am mates with one of the teacher reps on the board in Aus. I KNOW you think that's a piss-take mate, but I'm serious.
I won't respond to anything else in this matter. There's no need. All professional teachers and the overwhelming majority of the public understand me. I hope you can.
1] not explicitly, but you certainly seemed to understand all his problems.vladimir wrote: [1] Dengchao, I did NOT compare myself to the head of ISPP.
[2] One does not have to be qualified to notice widespread problems, or does one have to do an Australian degree in that, too?
[3] You have repeatedly implied that I have stated that I am academically qualified to be a school director/ teacher in a country like Australia. That is untrue, and you know it. I have a genuine degree in a subject relevant to my profession, and, for what it's worth, the dreaded TEFL certificate. Tremble in your insecure typo-laden boots!
[4] I stated that I had been a school director previously and thus had a slightly better understanding of what people in this position have to put up with. Your ranting, beer-inspired argument is based on the premise that because one needs certain qualifications in Australia, a lesser/ locally qualified or employed person is not able to do the job. It's an assumption based on stupid logic, and if you can't see that you shouldn't be a teacher.
[4] Your problem is that people like you (thank God, not many) are concerned about losing money to lesser-qualified people. You should, in fact, be criticising the employers if you are really stupid enough to believe that no one without your qualifications can teach.
[5] Your silly mistakes are not just typographical; they show that your thinking/ concentration is not 100%. That's fine, we all make mistakes, but the problem arises when you tout yourself as some kind of genius.
[6] You might wish to forget it, but we all learn continually. At one stage you were unqualified. Does this mean that you could not ever be teacher material? According to your standards, yes.
[7] Your attacks on me are nothing more nor less than personal, dust in the wind.
[8] I feel sorry for your students if any of this moronic arrogance comes through in the classroom (when you're not sneaking off, nice ethics btw)
[9]
Little man.
2] you'd need to be allowed to work in ISPP to notice these problems. You will never be allowed in, if you were, I think they'd be quite annoyed at your detection of their problems
3] can you quote me? I said that you imply it on a frequent basis
4 (1st)] Right mate, why didn't you specify where you were a director? As an Australian stating that phrase, you are misleading people into thinking that you were a professional with a much more complex job (yes it is Vlad, you just don't know it because you haven't done it) with a far higher salary.
4] YES! By poaching our professional title you are eroding our prospects and have severely tarnished our collective reputation. In the meantime, calling your job title as the identical western equivalent does nothing to lift your wages.
And there's the other side you don't get: one of my colleagues who on his first contract in Asia told me that he'd never been in a place where saying that you are a teacher makes people's body expression instantly sour. As stated, it may only be 10% of teflers who poison the well, but it should not be poison placed in our well which was doing just fine before the tefl phenomenon... it was mate.
You don't see that but WE DO EVERYDAY and it hurts... it really hurts that the professional title that I have worked so hard for is a dirty word around here.
Here's the Kicker: you say that I am arrogant, elitist, a prick whatever for insisting that unqualified teachers who work as teachers over here (where it is not a profession) choose a different job title!
Can't you see that it's you that is buggering up what we have worked for by taking a title you have no right to?! YOU are damaging US, not the other way around at all!
ALL I ASK IS LAY OF THE TITLE. I don't give a shit about your qualifications etc or how good you think your class-craft is. I REALLY REALLY DON'T!
I wouldn't care if you called yourself any other title at all, but 'teacher' implies professional accreditation when you nominate it as your vocation - the B Ed is one of many pre-requisites for this accreditation. You may not even be awarded registration after you've got it.
It is fine to say that you are working as a teacher. This is not invoking professional status upon yourself.
Every time I tell someone a teacher, they ask, something like: but are you a real teacher. I have to state firmly that I am. Then I feel like a prick, but WE are the ones who have been wronged! How many lawyers, nurses, accountants (all professionals in the West just as a teacher is) have to go through this everytime they answer the question that typically comes up very early in an introductory conversation?
5] Can you quote me where I said that I am a genius?
6] Yes, once I was unqualified. Never once did I call myself a 'teacher' because I was not one. I only told people that I was a teacher when my rego was in hand. Even when I was prac teaching I nominated myself as a student-teacher. To claim profession that is not earned is completely charlatan; I have never been guilty of this
- obviously I had the potential or I wouldn't be sitting on the wicket I'm on now or any of the wickets I've been on previously
- according to my logic ... doesn't even make sense
WHERE YOU ARE AT FAULT: you say that I reckon people without qualifications don't have the ability to be a good teacher; but I did not.
What I said is that you are not a teacher.
If you have your undergrad already, why not head back and get the dip Ed done, do your intern year, then come on back to a top tier? You would make the money you lost in the two years of study back in your first year as a professional!
You'd be happy with the massive pay hike. I'd be happy that you're true to the bill.
WHERE we are now is that you say you know what makes a good teacher in practice (and at least imply that I think it's all about papers)... BUT YOU ARE NOT A TEACHER AND I AM!
So I think you're really stepping out of line in this case mate. I know that you don't believe this, but we get paid so much more because our experience and training is so much greater. It's not just about the bit of paper mate. We have to do a lot of things to get those pieces of paper and we must conduct ourselves very well indeed. We are held to a higher standard of behaviour than most other citizens; this is fair enough of course.
If you don't agree then you insult us all. You don't know what a western professional's job is because you have never been admitted as one or worked as one. The standards are FAR FAR FAR higher than what anyone could expect from a $10ph casual worker.
- Either I earn in a week what you do in a month because I have a credential and you don't ... OR ...
- My standard of practice is many times better.
I reckon you, and some others, think the former is obviously true Vlad, but I am telling you that you are obviously wrong. There is MUCH more to running an International standard school and curriculum that you have the foggiest notion of.
-They limit their applicants to Western professionals because we provide a very high standard of education.
- parents pay tens of thousands of dollars because of what we empower their kids to do. They probably don't have a clue about our creds.
- jobs are often taken 7-8 months prior to start. Competition for the best professionals at Search and other fairs is fierce. There is no turning up to places the day before you start. It's full-on heavy lifting mate.
I don't bother looking for your grammar mistakes mate because I know any top-tier school in the world would take my resume over yours even if the credentials were cast aside. Myself and all the other professionals you tarnish with your attitude really are at a level of polish that gives us the market power we deserve.
So, do you really know what makes a 'great' teacher Vlad? I'm sure you have a fair idea, I'm not saying that you're incapable of forming a sound opinion... but I bet I know better than you on this subject. This is because my employment record, awards, exit aggregates, word of mouth, and high regard from parents, kids and faculty say the same thing: I am a truly great teacher... I won't bring in wage differences here because I am confident without the need to invoke them... but I command them. Other teachers with the same length of service rarely do.
IF that sounds arrogant then I hope you will pause and reflect for a moment Vlad. I am reacting to what I perceive to be your presumption that your experience is anywhere near mine; I hope I am wrong in perceiving your attitude that I am not really worth my wage [or that you are worth the same or more]. I find this so offensive.
If you're feeling offended too then I don't think you have a clue about the extremely demanding work found at the top academies on the international scene. They are actually spearheads for societies betterment rather than what many jealous people reckon they are.
7] No, it's not personal for the fifth time. I will curb my "attacks" (I think of them as criticisms) on you when you stop taking liberties with my title.
8] The many many senior students that have thrived under me and are now doing medicine in Oxford, Law in ANU etc are excellent kids mate and I love being part of their journey. They accept me as a top academic teacher (which my records have unfailingly attested). I was granted exit classes (G12) as a second year teacher, there were many in the faculty who never got near a senior class even after a decade. I am really good at my profession mate and I take a lot of pride in the excellent aggregates that I never fail to produce.
I know that you will never be let in to one of these classes unless you become a professional and inspire enough confidence in academia to be given a senior class. These are the classes I truly adore and I have typically managed to get 3 our of 5 such classes... this is because the professional admin had a massive amount of faith in my professional ability.
You have no right whatsoever to make any comment on my professionalism even if you had the first clue about me. More than likely you'd find yourself under my line if you ever get into a school I work at... I have seniority, glowing professional references, the highest GPA in both years of Post-Grad Ed, and a brilliant achievement average from my senior classes.
Thanks for telling me about my ethics. Teachers in Aus CAN leave at 3:30 quite legally, it's just not a great look to be going out the door at the same time as the kids; discretely leaving is better. We usually hang around for an hour or so afterwards... you would know this if you had a professional western background. At any rate, you have impugned me unfairly resultant of your own lack of understanding which is a result of your lack of experience as a professional.
BUT:
Not saying you don't have the ability! I have not said that. I say you do not have the profession. Your job is classified as neither a profession nor trade in this country. It is entry level work that carries no title other than Mr Vlad.
9] I've met you and I know I tower over you in more ways than you can think of... but I won't insult you champ!
* Why don't you just go back and get accredited? Have you got a smudge? You'd be surprised that you can get away with a few really little things from long ago or things that have been decriminalised subsequent to the act. I am mates with one of the teacher reps on the board in Aus. I KNOW you think that's a piss-take mate, but I'm serious.
I won't respond to anything else in this matter. There's no need. All professional teachers and the overwhelming majority of the public understand me. I hope you can.
- vladimir
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I dont know what this forum is coming to when I, vladimir, have too tell someone else it's getting tiresome and extremely boring.
Dengchao, if you don't like the situation I suggest you contact the government or go back to Aussie suburbia where life is as you like it. The fact that your livelihood can even be threatened is a telling criticism of your studies/ training/ environment. Welcome to the real world.
PS My title was not of my own making, it was assigned by the owner of the school, not , but you knew that already (optimistic emoticon).
exit.
Dengchao, if you don't like the situation I suggest you contact the government or go back to Aussie suburbia where life is as you like it. The fact that your livelihood can even be threatened is a telling criticism of your studies/ training/ environment. Welcome to the real world.
PS My title was not of my own making, it was assigned by the owner of the school, not , but you knew that already (optimistic emoticon).
exit.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
You're absolutely right mate, you didn't have to divulge it the first time and I wouldn't have cared less if you had not. But you did and it's clear to see that you are not at a professional standard as am I... sorry, but that's absolutely clear.erictheking wrote: Look, "champ", as has already been pointed out, this has gone on far too long and I don't particularly relish such pedagogic posturing but, when pushed, I will posture if I have to. I certainly shouldn't have to justify my background to you and I won't do again.
The image you have of TEFL is not one that most of its teachers demonstrate and, personally speaking, I'm always being asked to extend my contract, wherever I am in the world. Being as perfect as you clearly are, I can only imagine we share the same boat and management are always begging you to extend yours. That's the case, isn't it?
Finally, I'd like to think you're gonna leave this debate with your eyes wide open and much more aware of the skills required in two different industries, but I think you'll still keep peddling your anti-EFL nonsense so, whatever comes of this, I wish you good luck.
Evidently, you need i t.
Actually, you probably should have ignored me rather than publicising internal protocol. I invoked statutes, which are a matter of public record, so I'm looking good!
You... are looking a little silly... but that's just from my perspective! So no worries!
We didn't talk about pedagogy. I wouldn't get into such a conversation with someone whom I know is lacking credentials to talk on such a topic.
I've only made two statements that could be considered 'critical' (though I think they are ostensible factual observations) of the TEFL industry: 1) it is not a profession (2) 'teacher' is a professional title that can only be properly used by authorised people (through the steps that you got <4/7 for).
ALL I, AND VIRTUALLY ALL PROFESSIONAL TEACHERS, WANT IS OUR TITLE RESPECTED BY THOSE IN THE TEFL INDUSTRY!
As an aside, it would be nice if Vlad would stop hopping on his I-know-just-as-well-because-I-have-practical-qualification-which-is-just-as-good-as-a-professional-qualification horse. That is actually what sparked this massive essay competition in the first place... I thought we had laid the matter to rest in another thread years ago. I can't remember why you came in on it mate (and don't care, so no answer reqd thanks).
Um, the luck comment... I'm the luckiest bloke in Cambodia mate! You would not believe how good things are for me now in all facets of my life. I bet you would die to swap your position with mine even if it were a quarter as good as I have it.
No-one begs me mate: My employers have the means to stand shoulder to shoulder with me. No luck: I've earned all my dues with honour and I collect every time.
Excellent, world class, professionally acclaimed management whom I know quite well have provided me with far more than I dreamt of at this stage in my career. Even quite a few very generous fringe benefits I didn't think would come to me anywhere nearly so soon in my very promising career!
How did you go?
Thanks for your concern champ! All the best to you too! Just think, by 2018 you'll have earned as much as I will by the end of this year. Keep it up mate! Have a good life!
Oh, and fucking stop replying to me will you? I've had enough of you and that other bloody peanut. I'll work out the blocking mechanism on this if you annoy me again.
Thank-you. I didn't think I am being unreasonable to be honest.violet wrote:well, it's a good thing you stated you ignored everyone but KL and Hemmingway (and Vlad of course), as otherwise I'd feel obliged to read your entire essay submitted above.
However, I now understand your gripe.
Hey Violet, how do I block those two fools? Is it possible? Vlad is just an absolute twit! And I think the Eric lad must be his protege! I've never found anyone on the blog so annoying before. I think I've written about 5000 words in support of my position and they seem to read the first sentence and then completely misunderstanding me and then insulting me!
- violet
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When you are logged in. Top left. User Control Panel. Look along to the Friends & Foes tab and add their usernames in the right area in there.Dengchao wrote:Thank-you. I didn't think I am being unreasonable to be honest.violet wrote:well, it's a good thing you stated you ignored everyone but KL and Hemmingway (and Vlad of course), as otherwise I'd feel obliged to read your entire essay submitted above.
However, I now understand your gripe.
Hey Violet, how do I block those two fools? Is it possible? Vlad is just an absolute twit! And I think the Eric lad must be his protege! I've never found anyone on the blog so annoying before. I think I've written about 5000 words in support of my position and they seem to read the first sentence and then completely misunderstanding me and then insulting me!
Chillax now, dude...
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
- Plutarch
- Plutarch
Got it. I bet Vladimir's no stranger to that list!
That was like teaching quantum physics to the extreme special needs class!
That was like teaching quantum physics to the extreme special needs class!
- vladimir
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violet, thank you!
I'm just concerned why a god would need to ask anyone for advice?
Are you suitably qualified?...oops
Peace at last.
qantum physics? I think a pre-requisite is grammar 101/spelling 101. Aussies are fond of the Foundation Year scam, you might pass that.
I'm just concerned why a god would need to ask anyone for advice?
Are you suitably qualified?...oops
Peace at last.
qantum physics? I think a pre-requisite is grammar 101/spelling 101. Aussies are fond of the Foundation Year scam, you might pass that.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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