Huge Issues with Phnom Penh's biggest expat school ISPP?
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Is it too much to hope that this meaningless and acrimonious exchange, which long ceased to have any bearing on events at ISPP, comes to an end very soon?
It can come to and end at the same instant you choose to ignore it mate! You don't need hope, just a bit of will power;enough to read no more after this full-stop.
Wow KL! Here is a classic case in point. I have focused on the content of my argument to support my position in a long-running debate. You, instead of recognising the essence of my position, picked out a there/their mistake.KL&fool wrote:If you're having a dig at me, I did it to make a point as I always feel a bit hurt when people (such as DC) slag off EFL teachers. I also do that to prats who try to pass themselves off as EFL teachers, such as some posters on this forum who can't write for proverbial toffee. The fact is that if people constantly make silly mistakes when posting, it is likely that they will do the same when writing on the white board. You have defended such mistakes before against me. That is your prerogative, just as it's mine to defend my position. If anything's sad, it's the constant stream of mistakes from people who claim to be teachers of English.violet wrote:1. I totally agree with Dengchao about the nitpicking re. grammar/typos/brain temporarily switched off that results in a rogue "there" instead of "their", or forgotten commas, or commas out of place, or even a rouge instead of a rogue. I never really understand the mentality of the people expecting 100% perfect writing on this web forum. Guess they have little else to make themselves feel top of the English writing game and little else to try to bring others down to a level that allows them to feel superior
I'm old-fashioned and expect people who call themselves English teachers to be able to write (and post) in good English. Sorry if that's not trendy enough in today's modern, hip, PC world, but that's the way (ah ha, ah ha) I like it.
I'm not going to start insulting and slagging people off, though, as we're all different.
It would be lovely to do a Dengchao and say something like: 'I don't think I'm superior; I AM superior. ' But I won't! What a pity some posters resort to personal insults. But, that's the nature of a discussion forum, I dare say.
Have a nice evening!
You then use this to draw some very long bows indeed.
Please go back and focus on my content rather than picking on a couple of grammar errors (that wouldn't affect the grade of a kid sitting his final exams for a IB Diploma to any degree of <2%, if at all); you may make a cognitive shift that will allow you to perceive writers' intent, for eg:
1. Poor Violet did not 'have a dig at you,' she concurred with me on a point of this debate. That she disagreed with you in so doing should certainly not be taken personally!
2. I've qualified myself on numerous occasions on this matter: I am not slagging off the EFL industry. Instead of using a microscope to find grammar mistakes, please count the times I have paid my respects to EFLers. I also apologised when I realised my vitriol (which was aimed at one individual's preposterous comments) may have caused offence.
3. I'm going to attempt an interpretation of what you meant by the whiteboard comment: because of the grammar errors I've made (go and count them if you want mate, Baccalaureate Lang A teachers would not), I might make frequent errors on the whiteboard, ergo, myself and all those who've made a grammar error on K440 are, in some degree, deficient in their job as an Efler or profession as a Teacher. Am I right?
Mate, I witness quite a few grammar errors you've made. I am looking beyond them. Your content is flawed in my opinion.
I've previously paid my respects to you and acknowledged your qualifications do indeed surpass mine. In fact, the lowliest Tefler who got High Achievement in Grade 12 English and then got a Tefl cert (even the really basic one that you can get online on a weekend), would actually have greater tertiary qualifications in English than I.
So the crux of my respects to you were: I don't think you're superior to me in English, you are superior... but your history does need a bit of attention.
My studies have always been in the Humanities. I have only had English classes in Australia where I had some G8-10 classes. While G 11-12 History and Legal Studies were open to me, G 11-12 English was firmly closed, quite rightly so. The teachers allowed access to those crucial final years were those with tertiary studies in English Lit. I would have dis-served senior students if I took such a class; this is something I would never do.
I know you are well qualified in Lit, but I wonder why you seem to be misunderstanding fundamental elements of argument and picking out silly grammar errors.
I too decry the decline of grammar in the English - speaking world. But there is a difference in an isolated grammar error (eg: there/their) and an ongoing misunderstanding (eg: belief that one must use an apostrophe to denote plurality - a personal pet hatred of mine as it appears so ubiquitously).
I second your sentiments KL, but I question your idea (if I read your intent correctly) that people should write with perfect adherence to English grammar on a site such as this. I know you have made some grammar errors yourself with the briefest of glances at your former post. I will not point them out as I don't believe they matter in this case.
I think your content suggests that you have failed to comprehend the heart of posts that both Violet and I made... like completely misunderstood.
Of more importance than strict adherence to elementary conventions, the communication of the true essence of content is of far greater importance; whether you be a teacher of language or a humanity.
I agree with Violet that Eflers must necessarily focus on grammar as ESLers need these building blocks to get to that level I speak of, ie: that level that we are using now. But the native proficiency of Violet's, yours and mine is clear.
KL, you know better than to be picking silly grammar errors (that form no pattern of repetition) in order to impugn me (if that were your intent as I perceive it to be) seemingly in retaliation to what you perceive as an attack I have made on you.
I know that your mastery of English is beyond refutation; I've said so before more than once. Why then are you resorting a silly base-level Tefler tactic of picking on grammar burps in response to a recurring and legitimate debate? I reckon you're better than that.
I completely agree Violet. I have never set foot in an Efl college, though I have sent my wife to one (I got a bit upset with them, but that's a different post). So helping my wife with her homework gave me quite an insight into the importance of elementary grammar.violet wrote:1. I totally agree with Dengchao about the nitpicking re. grammar/typos/brain temporarily switched off that results in a rogue "there" instead of "their", or forgotten commas, or commas out of place, or even a rouge instead of a rogue. I never really understand the mentality of the people expecting 100% perfect writing on this web forum. Guess they have little else to make themselves feel top of the English writing game and little else to try to bring others down to a level that allows them to feel superior. Sad.
2. Dengchao, you didn't have to focus on grammar back in your Oz classes, because you were teaching native speakers (unless I've missed the detail as I skim read your posts) . TEFLers, in general, will focus on grammar more than you would have in your classes, because grammar isn't picked up at a young age in an osmosis-like fashion (those that want to prove their intelligence and disprove any that I might have will likely now start throwing around the "correct" terminology) by non-native speaking students. It has to be taught. Also, in Cambodia there is a high demand from the students themselves to learn the grammar. They value it (too) highly - put way too much emphasis on it sometimes. And, finally, if the instructor/tutor is of an ESL background rather than a TEFL background, they are actually (incorrectly some would argue) working to bring their students up to a native speaker fluency, rather than the 'be understood' type of learning that TEFL is actually geared toward. This distinction between what is trying to be achieved by ESL vs TEFL is getting more and more blurred, and it is esp. murky in Cambodia.
She is the only person who I correct on fundamental grammar mistakes because I refuse to be in a cross-cultural marriage which relies on Pidgin as the mode of communication; so this is perhaps my sole insight to the coal-face that the poor Teflers face every day. It would drive me up the wall! My wife alone has been a massive challenge over the years. I couldn't face rooms full of her every day!
I now see the grinding work of the Efl industry. I know that it is not a profession due to its very nature, but it is necessary and challenging work nonetheless. It's a completely different industry to mine for certain.
God bless the unions GGE: http://education.qld.gov.au/projects/ed ... 91110.htmlGary Gilmour's Eyes wrote:As usual, Dengchao, I agree with most of the points you are making, but where the hell did you get the figure of 100K for an Australian teacher? When I last taught in Queensland in 2003, the gross salary for a teacher with 8 yrs. or more experience was AU$48,000. It was raised to $52,000 at the end of that year and I understand it is now about $58,000.
Of course, I was teaching in the government system, but it is standard practice for private school teachers to receive the same salaries and raises as teachers in the state system. The only exceptions are a relatively small number of elite private schools that pay above the standard rates, but nothing like the figures you have mentioned. That sort of money is earned by administrators, not classroom teachers.
FIRST YEARS now start on $57,000!
Christ on a cracker....
One of the few threads on teaching I just can't even begin to read...
Horace, can u whip up another summary for us?
One of the few threads on teaching I just can't even begin to read...
Horace, can u whip up another summary for us?
Forgive me DC - I'm not a teacher, but you haven't answered the question - how do you earn 100k as a teacher in Aus, or Qld for that matter?Dengchao wrote:God bless the unions GGE: http://education.qld.gov.au/projects/ed ... 91110.htmlGary Gilmour's Eyes wrote:As usual, Dengchao, I agree with most of the points you are making, but where the hell did you get the figure of 100K for an Australian teacher? When I last taught in Queensland in 2003, the gross salary for a teacher with 8 yrs. or more experience was AU$48,000. It was raised to $52,000 at the end of that year and I understand it is now about $58,000.
Of course, I was teaching in the government system, but it is standard practice for private school teachers to receive the same salaries and raises as teachers in the state system. The only exceptions are a relatively small number of elite private schools that pay above the standard rates, but nothing like the figures you have mentioned. That sort of money is earned by administrators, not classroom teachers.
FIRST YEARS now start on $57,000!
The following link is the Qld teachers award agreement (2011), and according to schedule 5, the highest a "teacher" can earn is about 80K. The highest level education administrator gets close to 100K. (Before tax). http://www.qirc.qld.gov.au/resources/pd ... 200911.pdf
So, and I haven't read through all the previous text, where exactly did you teach in OZ to get over 100K? From my understanding, Qld is probably up there near the top in terms of remuneration, I think Vic is the lowest.
An Australian high school teacher and a Cambodian TEFLer arguing over who gets paid the most. It is like a competition to find the worlds tallest midget! LOL
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
― Christopher Hitchens
Forgive me DC - I'm not a teacher, but you haven't answered the question - how do you earn 100k as a teacher in Aus, or Qld for that matter?chubacca wrote: God bless the unions GGE: http://education.qld.gov.au/projects/ed ... 91110.html
FIRST YEARS now start on $57,000!
The following link is the Qld teachers award agreement (2011), and according to schedule 5, the highest a "teacher" can earn is about 80K. The highest level education administrator gets close to 100K. (Before tax). http://www.qirc.qld.gov.au/resources/pd ... 200911.pdf
So, and I haven't read through all the previous text, where exactly did you teach in OZ to get over 100K? From my understanding, Qld is probably up there near the top in terms of remuneration, I think Vic is the lowest.[/quote]
Just going by your figure there and putting a conservative compulsory superannuation employer supplement on that and using the xe.com calendar to account for the stronger Aussie dollar, you're estimate is 92,550.44 USD; but I believe that may be old award.
NT is the top of the pops right now by the looks of it at the moment mate, $114,000: (counting super must be more like $130k at a conservative guess, so about USD 135,000).
http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Industrial ... sJul11.pdf
The Qld government signed an agreement that involves incremental annual increases for a few years to go (?), so I imagine it will be nudging OZD $100k in a couple more years. With super, that's about OZD $115k.
Of course, if you pick up a HOD, HOY, HOH, Sports master, or take work in a remote area (which would include half the positions in Australia), there are bonuses. Also, Long service leave. Excellent health insurance. Housing subsidies and free housing altogether in some areas.
I remember seeing an award that indicated state heads make more than your figure mate, it was around OZD $130k (+ super) at one stage. For private heads it can be quite a different story. The Head of John Paul College north of Brisbane pulls around half a million a year (according to a newspaper report I remember), plus house, plus chauffer etc. He may not be the best off either, the Heads of Sydney and Geelong Grammar may be a fair deal richer.
I reckon it would be a safe bet that virtually all of the professional heads around SE Asia's top tier schools are on a quarter to over a half mill package... without the taxes of the West or the headaches of their unions back home.
Last edited by Dengchao on Wed May 02, 2012 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe you're the winner then mate, read above for the Australian awards (step one around AUD $55k - $114k plus around 10-15% superannuation, lets just say ten and adjust to US dollars, ergo $70k - $130k USD); this is a F/T contract or permanent. All Australian teachers, be they first year or up, are make the top percentile of income in the world with the ability to be in the top 0.5% in ten years or so (these are Aussie dollars BTW) ... not too bad with three months holiday hey!TJP777 wrote:An Australian high school teacher and a Cambodian TEFLer arguing over who gets paid the most. It is like a competition to find the worlds tallest midget! LOL
I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I am talking on average) Teflers are typically employed casually at about 10ph. Lets say 25 hours pw x 50 weeks =USD $12,500 pa up to maybe $1800 (as Vlad the 'school director' indicated). I don't know if the poor buggers get health insurance, super, paid holidays, paid leave, flights, no flights, go overseas for seminars, housing or utility allowance; but they are not doing too badly as they occupy the 13th percentile of income earners in the world. [JUST GOING BY WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM MORE THAN ONE PERSON, NO DOUBT SOME GET BETTER - AND NO DON'T TAKE THIS AS AN INSULT I AM BEING AS ACCURATE AS MY KNOWLEDGE ALLOWS AND HELPING AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS CLEARLY INCREDIBLY WEALTHY
Anyway OP, you must be one of the richest blokes in the world sitting at around the top 0.000001% if you think the spread between the first and 13th percentile amongst a population of 7 billion is like finding the world's tallest midget. What do you do?! It can be your shout tonight I reckon.
Calculator here: http://www.globalrichlist.com/
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John Paul College was on the south side of Brisbane, when I last drove past it. As I haven't done that for a long time, they may have changed campuses. The principal was my History HOD for 7 years during the late 70s and early 80s.
If he really is earning $500,000 it might be time to threaten to reveal some of his antics during his early administrative career. Beer, prawn and porno movie lunches in the all male staff room. Banging the drugged out haggard Art teacher on a desk in the Art storeroom, while she had a class next door. Accidently using his wife's credit card at Sydney's famous Touch of Class brothel. Being caught for DUI at 7.30 am while driving to start work on his 1st. day as a deputy principal.
Early retirement here I come!
Actually I don't know if his official title is Director or Principal. Either way, his mate and partner in running the place is out of the same mould. I'd never blackmail him and would love to have him as my boss, again, as he hasn't mellowed much with age. No chance at my place, but it seems ISPP may be looking for a new administrator. Seems like he might be out of their price range.
If he really is earning $500,000 it might be time to threaten to reveal some of his antics during his early administrative career. Beer, prawn and porno movie lunches in the all male staff room. Banging the drugged out haggard Art teacher on a desk in the Art storeroom, while she had a class next door. Accidently using his wife's credit card at Sydney's famous Touch of Class brothel. Being caught for DUI at 7.30 am while driving to start work on his 1st. day as a deputy principal.
Early retirement here I come!
Actually I don't know if his official title is Director or Principal. Either way, his mate and partner in running the place is out of the same mould. I'd never blackmail him and would love to have him as my boss, again, as he hasn't mellowed much with age. No chance at my place, but it seems ISPP may be looking for a new administrator. Seems like he might be out of their price range.
Hey DC I am an Aussie so I know that working as a teacher you are doing something that is rated so low by most young Australians that it requires an ATAR of less than 70 at most Uni's and if you want to study for a GDed the government will pay you to do it because they can not get enough people to do the job. So while you may think it is a great career it would appear that the rest of the Australian labour market does not agree.
By the way, I am an over paid International Development Aid professional. So next time your in PP and need someone to buy you a beer give me a shout and I will get my driver to drop you off a case from me. If you ask real nicely I might even make it a case of Coopers Pale Ale from the Food Pantry.
By the way, I am an over paid International Development Aid professional. So next time your in PP and need someone to buy you a beer give me a shout and I will get my driver to drop you off a case from me. If you ask real nicely I might even make it a case of Coopers Pale Ale from the Food Pantry.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
― Christopher Hitchens
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that sounds like the skool where I TAUGHT IN pHNOM pENH--ALSO A BIT LIKE A.C.E...
Beer, prawn and porno movie lunches in the all male staff room. Banging the drugged out haggard Art teacher on a desk in the Art storeroom, while she had a class next door.
is there a course I can take to help me understand this thread???
Violet???
Joined: '03; Member 39. Funny Quote: Prince Phillip to a driving Instructor in Scotland: "How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them to pass the test?"
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