Some of you may remember my first year post, see below. I thought I would do something similar now that the second anniversary has arrived.
http://www.khmer440.com/chat_forum/view ... 22&t=57387
As much as the first year filled me with hope and wonder, the second year was more of a grind. I came up against some big challenges and although I am pulling through, there were a lot of “wow, this is really hard” moments. This is how I encountered and tried to break through these challenges, which I imagine are par for the course for the average Khmer learner.
Spoken Khmer –
The initial enormous challenge was achieving any sort of listening proficiency. As any learner soon discovers, there is a universe of difference between the written and formal Khmer and how people express themselves in the day to day. The speed, diction, and syntax are all quite different. There were times that I wondered if people were even speaking Khmer. (Funny story: I got on a bus going from Vietnam to Phnom Penh and everybody was speaking Vietnamese. I was going crazy for about 30 minutes before I asked one guy what was going on and realized, wait a second, this isn’t even Khmer.)
Now, if you asked me what the language of Cambodian is, I would say that the written language is Khmer, but the widespread language is a spoken variant that is the Khmer version of the type of English you may hear in the South Bronx or East London. That is, many Khmer speak an abbreviated version of Khmer in which even a simple word like ស្រី can becomes សី and ប្រុស turns into ផុស (although for sure many Khmer speak clearly and properly). If pressed to lay down the rules for this spoken variant, it would be something like:
1. If a word has two syllables, you can sometimes drop one.
ដំណើរ = ត្នើ. Or ប្រញាប់ to ញាប់
2. The “r” sound is often killed as well. ស្រោច is very often សោច. This happens so frequently with informal Khmer that you can almost rely on it. If someone screams coke lann don’t look around for the Khmer dictionary, they are probably saying ក្រោកឡើង. Alternatively, “r” can become an “h” sound. ហឿង is very common in spoken Khmer.
3. Baw becomes paw – ប should really become ផ in a lot of instances: ប្រអប់ becomes ផ្អប់.
4. Dropping the gaw on the back of words – At least in Phnom Penh, it has such a minor fleeting sound that the beginner should almost not try listening to it. ទឹកកក can easily sound like ទឹកក៏.
5. តែ is often តា. Like នៅតែ or នៅតា. Don’t look around for grandpa.
Examples of this are all over, but for a classic example go watch Khmer comedians like នាយក្រឹម. Intentionally I believe, as the Khmer comedians are known for trying to sound like the salt of the earth funny guys. Now compare this to an average newscast, and you can tell that you have gone from street Khmer to the book Khmer almost instantly. Suddenly, everyone starts saying the words the way they are meant to be said.
The weird thing is that the Khmer and Khmer teachers shy away from the spoken language. They love teaching you the formal stuff. So you may have to insist by bringing in a tabloid paper. More on that later.
Vernacular Synonyms –
Adding to a lot of the confusion is the Khmer love of using a lot of what I call vernacular synonyms to sound less formal or stuffy. These are phrases that are more commonly used than the ones in books. For instance, a beginner learns that you nek naa to ask “who/whom” but the intermediate or advanced learner encounters the more familiar naa gae or the rude a naa
អ្នកណា = ណាគេ ឬ អាណា
To use another example, so many of the Khmer resources teach the appropriate Khmer equivalent to “cool” or “that’s cool” would be ឡូយមែន. This is true, in the same way that perhaps being able to tell all your buddies they’re “swell” would work. Another more common usage is អស់ស្ទះម៉ង or អស់ស្ទះ. This is the one I hear more often.
This is the tip of the iceberg of notebooks I have filled with other phrases. Want to say that your buddy is drinking? Yeah, you can say that he is ផឹកស៊ី but more often is ដកមេ, a phrase that doesn’t even come up when I put it into dictionaries. Or are you hurt a little bit? កាហាយ comes in handy. There are also some fascinating idioms that you need to know, and some of these can get more complex, like បើមិនជួយចូកជួយចេវ កុំយកជើងរាទឹកអី which means like if you can’t make it better, don’t make it worse.
What makes these difficult is that so many resources will teach you the formal stuff, but few of them will hit you with the good stuff, the few words and phrases that’ll really launch your listening and speaking ability. Which gets me to the part of how to really learn these, which is by encountering them.
Encounters -
A beginner learner has it easy in terms of resources, but the past year has been more difficult because I had to actively search the goldilocks of not too hot or cold for my new resources. For a while, I tried to read the formal Khmer papers every morning, but the subject matter was dry and I found myself reaching for the dictionary too often to get words like the “ministry of mining and energy” that didn’t really move me along in terms of being able to understand the average Cambodian.
Instead, I really love Khmerload and a few other more “fun” type papers. It has a lot of pictures and articles like who is the prettiest or who wore it prettiest that are fun to read. I have been following a few scandals too, which keeps me engaged in the sense that microfinance in the provinces doesn’t.
Where the rubber really meets the road is the comments on sites like these. This is where you encounter Khmer in its messiest incarnation – bad spelling, unfocused grammar, generous helpings of slang. I still can only work through maybe 60 to 70 percent of the average comments section but it is extremely rewarding because I always feel like this is where I am getting to the heart of what I need to know. Ask yourself what is a better resource for intermediate English – the comments section on yahoo news or a formal text used by elementary school students?
The other thing is transcriptions. My teacher and I do lessons where we both listen to a Khmer TV show or movie and transcribe it. I will do a sentence, then he will correct me, then I will ask questions such as why do they say មិនមែន like memeen or what does this slang phrase mean or what is the actor trying to say. You need to be able to listen and catch every word, and also know what words are not words but English equivalents of “ugh, like” like the very common ណៀក. I keep the transcriptions and listen repeatedly.
Motivation -
One of the main realizations I had when learning Khmer is that nobody really cared if I did well or not. The Khmer mostly don’t; they want to practice their English. One time, I walked into a shop and I couldn’t tell who was being rude – the shopkeeper who kept insisting on English or me who replied only in Khmer (though it was evident we both understood each other as the conversation continued unabated). I think I had a few interactions even, where I probably came off as a total weirdo who had spent so little time in Cambodia and yet somehow spoke a stuffy, sounds-like-it-was-gleaned-from-a-textbook Khmer.
Once in a while, though, you will connect with someone in a way that you couldn’t. And I think that if there is anything that absolutely cannot be bought no matter how much money you have, it is respect. Respect, like love, is one of the vagaries of the heart and not a commodity. And knowing Khmer opens doors because it shows a respect and appreciation for the culture.
The one caveat is the Khmer can be EXTREMELY sensitive with their language and I cannot stress enough that you may be held to a high standard if you speak it, especially with the honorifics. Speaking អញ to the wrong person can be very offensive. I found this surprising because I figured they would cut me more slack, but that has not been the case. Another odd example is I called a female friend ហង (which is often the spoken variant of ផង but can also be a derisive term like maid) and definitely hit a sore spot. I never meant to offend her, regardless.
Conclusion
For the past two years, I have ស៊ូៗ as the Khmer like to say. I do not consider myself particularly good with languages or talented at Khmer, but I have not given up. Rain or shine, I still do 3 hours of private lessons every week, read Khmer during my hour long commute to work, and text with friends on a daily basis. I also do about an hour of solo listening practice 3-4 days a week, where I review old transcripts in my subtitle program (I mentally note what I thought they said and then check the old transcription).
At the end of the day, the best thing I can say about Khmer is that the more I learned, the more I wanted to learn. And the more I learned, the more I felt a sense of accomplishment. And that's really all that I can ask of a fulfilling, healthy hobby.
Thoughts After Year Two of Studying Khmer
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- ផោមក្លិនស្អុយ
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Fair play to your commitment.
I’ve plateaued with my learning. I’d like to develop it more but don’t really have the time to invest.
Maybe in the future... but in reality, probably not.
I’ve plateaued with my learning. I’d like to develop it more but don’t really have the time to invest.
Maybe in the future... but in reality, probably not.
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- Making Khmer girls cry since 2003
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All this Khmer studying seems like a lot of effort to go through just to have an excuse to cheat on your Filipina girlfriend.
Follow my lame Twitter feed: @gavin_mac
- Jamie_Lambo
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yeah understand what your saying MM
i would probably compare the 'common street khmer' that you mention not to east London, as they speak quite clear, just change a lot of vowel sounds, i see it as a more similar to the 'northern english' style of speech, where it is sloppy and slurred and abbreviated a lot more for example "do you want to come to the bar" becomes "D'ya wanna come T'bar"
but yeah, i do admire your commitment, youve done well considering youve only spent what, 2weeks in country? you planning a return?
is most of your understanding just based on you social interaction with your teacher, media, and your 2 week stay?
i would probably compare the 'common street khmer' that you mention not to east London, as they speak quite clear, just change a lot of vowel sounds, i see it as a more similar to the 'northern english' style of speech, where it is sloppy and slurred and abbreviated a lot more for example "do you want to come to the bar" becomes "D'ya wanna come T'bar"
but yeah, i do admire your commitment, youve done well considering youve only spent what, 2weeks in country? you planning a return?
is most of your understanding just based on you social interaction with your teacher, media, and your 2 week stay?
Mean Dtuk Mean Trey, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
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Northern English may be more accurate. I actually don't know much about the UK in terms of accents. I agree they do mold the words together and speak so fast you almost have to anticipate what they're saying to some extent.Jamie_Lambo wrote:yeah understand what your saying MM
i would probably compare the 'common street khmer' that you mention not to east London, as they speak quite clear, just change a lot of vowel sounds, i see it as a more similar to the 'northern english' style of speech, where it is sloppy and slurred and abbreviated a lot more for example "do you want to come to the bar" becomes "D'ya wanna come T'bar"
but yeah, i do admire your commitment, youve done well considering youve only spent what, 2weeks in country? you planning a return?
is most of your understanding just based on you social interaction with your teacher, media, and your 2 week stay?
You are correct that my understanding is limited to a few sources and not the day-to-day use of it that probably really instills an understanding. The 2 week stay actually just made me hungry to learn a lot more. I felt an itch to really dig deeper and become that much better.
I do plan on returning sometime in the next few years, but I am waiting until after elections and to save up a bit more money. I am not sure I would even like to live there, honestly, but I have never lived outside of the US as an adult, so I want to see what it is like to be an expat. I want an adventure. I don't want to look back years from now and say, boy, those were some great years of commuting to work, staring at a screen, and then going back home to cook some eggs for dinner! Sure was worth it!
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merchantsmutual wrote:Northern English may be more accurate. I actually don't know much about the UK in terms of accents. I agree they do mold the words together and speak so fast you almost have to anticipate what they're saying to some extent.Jamie_Lambo wrote:yeah understand what your saying MM
i would probably compare the 'common street khmer' that you mention not to east London, as they speak quite clear, just change a lot of vowel sounds, i see it as a more similar to the 'northern english' style of speech, where it is sloppy and slurred and abbreviated a lot more for example "do you want to come to the bar" becomes "D'ya wanna come T'bar"
but yeah, i do admire your commitment, youve done well considering youve only spent what, 2weeks in country? you planning a return?
is most of your understanding just based on you social interaction with your teacher, media, and your 2 week stay?
You are correct that my understanding is limited to a few sources and not the day-to-day use of it that probably really instills an understanding. The 2 week stay actually just made me hungry to learn a lot more. I felt an itch to really dig deeper and become that much better.
I do plan on returning sometime in the next few years, but I am waiting until after elections and to save up a bit more money. I am not sure I would even like to live there, honestly, but I have never lived outside of the US as an adult, so I want to see what it is like to be an expat. I want an adventure. I don't want to look back years from now and say, boy, those were some great years of commuting to work, staring at a screen, and then going back home to cook some eggs for dinner! Sure was worth it!
Mean Dtuk Mean Trey, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
Woah, that's pretty thorough for a story. I'm actually waiting for more Asian languages to be available at duolingo since I can't find a learning center here that offers the language. I only saw Chinese, Korean, Bahasa, and Nihongo.
I have been a silent a reader at khmer440 and finally registered.
I have been in Cambodia nearly 1 year too, can read and write since 1 month but of course it is all still developing.
Your post from your first year:
You said your weakest skill is still listening, so is mine...
If someone speaks specificly too me or in a group it is fine but if I for example to listen to my staff at school or khmer friends at the gym at random conversations, it is still hard.
I am speaking since nearly 5 months only khmer with my girlfriend, so she is used to my phrases etc.
I guess I just develop through listening, listening and listening,...
And what's you best tip to extend (useful) daily vocabulary?
I would like to catch up with and Jamie too see you good you guys really are /and me too
I have been in Cambodia nearly 1 year too, can read and write since 1 month but of course it is all still developing.
Your post from your first year:
You said your weakest skill is still listening, so is mine...
If someone speaks specificly too me or in a group it is fine but if I for example to listen to my staff at school or khmer friends at the gym at random conversations, it is still hard.
I am speaking since nearly 5 months only khmer with my girlfriend, so she is used to my phrases etc.
I guess I just develop through listening, listening and listening,...
And what's you best tip to extend (useful) daily vocabulary?
I would like to catch up with and Jamie too see you good you guys really are /and me too
- Jamie_Lambo
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beers sounds goodSTAZ96 wrote:I have been a silent a reader at khmer440 and finally registered.
I have been in Cambodia nearly 1 year too, can read and write since 1 month but of course it is all still developing.
Your post from your first year:
You said your weakest skill is still listening, so is mine...
If someone speaks specificly too me or in a group it is fine but if I for example to listen to my staff at school or khmer friends at the gym at random conversations, it is still hard.
I am speaking since nearly 5 months only khmer with my girlfriend, so she is used to my phrases etc.
I guess I just develop through listening, listening and listening,...
And what's you best tip to extend (useful) daily vocabulary?
I would like to catch up with and Jamie too see you good you guys really are /and me too
Mean Dtuk Mean Trey, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
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