April '75 memoirs of US Ambassador
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This report is fairly comprehensive: https://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/reme ... -on-81890/
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
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Captain America, if you mean the killings during the near-4 years after the surrender, then that was a matter of people cowed and starved and drained and ill and in no condition to resist.Captain America wrote: ... To think that I wasn't even born when these atrocities were happening in Cambodia. I'm always thinking that if I was in their situation I would fight back even though I knew I was going to lose but in no way, shape, or form I would be a coward. I rather die with honor and have no regrets instead of having regrets because I was a coward ...
If you refer to the Lon Nol soldiers surrendering, then they simply ran out of ammunition. In no way, shape or form were they cowards. When Pol Pot captured Phnom Penh, he was shocked at how little munition he was able to score. He'd hoped for masses of equipment for the inevitable upcoming war with Hanoi. Instead, imbued with self-reliance, he'd be forced to trade rice for arms from Beijing, and subsequently hundreds of thousands would starve to death during his regime.
The Lon Nol soldiers ran out of ammo because the anti-war movement influenced the 93rd Democrat-controlled Congress to refuse to grant extra supplies to either the South Vietnamese or Khmer armies. Meanwhile China kept the Rouge fully equipped and functional.
.
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
I think the few hundred million that congress declined to give would have been wasted, as the war was lost long before this and getting arms and ammunition into the country was nearly impossible.
And the corrupt Khmer supply chain and the army of ghost soldiers made things worse. The corruption in both the south Vietnamese and Cambodian armies were legendary and the poor peasant foot soldiers had no motivation at all.
The differences in commitment between the KR, Viet Cong and North Vietnamese compared to the conscripts in the US sponsored armies were stark. The same of course for the US conscript army itself.
Blaming the peace movement and or the media for the loss is far too simplistic. We control the media nowadays and still don't win wars, whatever winning means.
And the corrupt Khmer supply chain and the army of ghost soldiers made things worse. The corruption in both the south Vietnamese and Cambodian armies were legendary and the poor peasant foot soldiers had no motivation at all.
The differences in commitment between the KR, Viet Cong and North Vietnamese compared to the conscripts in the US sponsored armies were stark. The same of course for the US conscript army itself.
Blaming the peace movement and or the media for the loss is far too simplistic. We control the media nowadays and still don't win wars, whatever winning means.
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That old embassy building looks a tad better now. It's a really nice place to walk around in, the layout is nice. I almost bought an apartment in there a few years back. Interestingly, I was originally told it was the embassy staff's residence, not the actual embassy. I guess I misunderstood him. Apparently it was owned by a Thai magnate either before or right after the Americans moved in/left.
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karmageddon1 wrote:Captain America, if you mean the killings during the near-4 years after the surrender, then that was a matter of people cowed and starved and drained and ill and in no condition to resist.Captain America wrote: ... To think that I wasn't even born when these atrocities were happening in Cambodia. I'm always thinking that if I was in their situation I would fight back even though I knew I was going to lose but in no way, shape, or form I would be a coward. I rather die with honor and have no regrets instead of having regrets because I was a coward ...
If you refer to the Lon Nol soldiers surrendering, then they simply ran out of ammunition. In no way, shape or form were they cowards. When Pol Pot captured Phnom Penh, he was shocked at how little munition he was able to score. He'd hoped for masses of equipment for the inevitable upcoming war with Hanoi. Instead, imbued with self-reliance, he'd be forced to trade rice for arms from Beijing, and subsequently hundreds of thousands would starve to death during his regime.
The Lon Nol soldiers ran out of ammo because the anti-war movement influenced the 93rd Democrat-controlled Congress to refuse to grant extra supplies to either the South Vietnamese or Khmer armies. Meanwhile China kept the Rouge fully equipped and functional.
I meant the people that got captured by these psychos, If I'm going to be a prisoner I'm going all out! I rather die fighting instead of being tortured or grasping to an idea that one day I will be rescued. I'm assuming for captives hope dies down after a few days.
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ken svay wrote:I think the few hundred million that congress declined to give would have been wasted, as the war was lost long before this and getting arms and ammunition into the country was nearly impossible.
And the corrupt Khmer supply chain and the army of ghost soldiers made things worse. The corruption in both the south Vietnamese and Cambodian armies were legendary and the poor peasant foot soldiers had no motivation at all.
The differences in commitment between the KR, Viet Cong and North Vietnamese compared to the conscripts in the US sponsored armies were stark. The same of course for the US conscript army itself.
Blaming the peace movement and or the media for the loss is far too simplistic. We control the media nowadays and still don't win wars, whatever winning means.
I have to disagree Ken Svay.
You do know the defection numbers for the VC I trust. We're talking tens of thousands of them each year after 1968. Meanwhile, South Vietnamese troop defections to the communist side were basically zero.
And in 1975 the KR got knocked around as badly as the government soldiers did. 'Ghost soldiers', 'corruption' and all, the Lon Nol men were giving as good as they got. I absolutely assure you they had motivation.
Further, many KR were reluctant conscriptees while others were Sihanoukists who'd come to realize that Sihanouk was a nonentity in the KR, and hordes of KR would've defected to the government side if they could've.
Had the Lon Nol men been able to hold just a couple f months more until the rains then the KR morale would've crashed. The other key point in relation to this is that Saigon fell on April 30. That was why Pol Pot had hammered his men to capture PP before the NV could seize Saigon and 'resume their 'interest' in Cambodia.
As Pol Pot always saw the NV as the more evil of his 2 enemies, who can know what he might have decided to do had Phnom Penh held on through to June-July, with Hanoi (now fully aware of Pol Pot's intent to betray the Indochina Communist Party) able to concentrate resources back into Cambodia. Pol Pot would've been forced to react to this threat.
.
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
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I was involved with the preparations for the "Incursion" in to Cambodia in 1970 because of Operation Commando Vault.
Because of my them MOS/ECN in late 1969 I was seconded at short notice to Cam Rahn Bay and was involved with Operation Commando Vault. Commando Vault was classified for quite a number of years but details are readily available on the internet these days.
In brief, we were involved in rigging ex WW11 10,000 pound bombs that had been sold as surplus in Europe, in Germany I believe, after the war so that the explosives could be reclaimed and turned in to fertilizer and the metal bomb casings used as scrap iron and recycled. However, some of these had to be repurchased by the US military at a considerably higher price and then shipped to Cam Rahn Bay for Op Commando Vault.
These 10,000 pound bombs were then fitted with a six foot fuse extension and then rigged on oregon and plywood combat expendable platforms (CEP). Once rigged, they were then fitted with a small drogue chute. We loaded two combat expendable platforms, each with one 10,000 pound bomb, in to a USAF C130 aircraft.
Sorties to Cambodia were mostly over Kien Svay province, the Parrot's Beak area as we called it then, and were always very early in the morning with take off well before first light, and with bomb release not long after first light, when ground and other winds were usually at their stillest for the day and the air moisture content was at its maximum and had not been burned off by the early sun. These were as close as one could hope to get to "still air" conditions in the tropics.
On the way to target area, the C130 would fly at various altitudes so that the controlling ground station radar stations using the radar Doppler effect could accurately calculate wind speed and directions and calculate a precise release point. On the final run in, the pilot would start well out from target area and the master ground radar station, there were up to three radar stations I believe, would give precise directions to the pilot as to altitude, airspeed and bearing/heading and he would correct accordingly Then would start, from memory, a twenty second count down to release. On the "execute" command, the load master popped the drogue chute which immediately pulled the CEP out of the aircraft. The very small drogue chute had only two purposes. Firstly to extract the loaded CEP from the aircraft by acting as a brake as the aircraft flew on and secondly to keep the 10,000 pound bomb falling vertically, fuse extension down. It was not intended to slow the fall of the bomb in any way at all as this would have exposed the falling bomb to any wind drift.
Once load was released, I would race back from the cargo hold to stand between the pilot and co pilot to observe the point of detonation and observe the semi-circular blast wave come very rapidly up from point of impact and through the aircraft and beyond. Now, the moisture in the air made this huge blast wave very easy indeed to see and it moved at a highly impressive speed. On my first release, the passing of the shock wave blast through the C130 really caught me by surprise and it felt and sounded to me as if every rivet in the aircraft had fallen out! Of course, the more seasoned aircrew always looked forward to having a first timer on board! We are all a virgin at something in our lives, even when it comes to dropping 10,000 dumb bombs from a C130 aircraft over Cambodia! Thereafter it becomes fun. Very late in this operation a 15,000 pound bomb was used for the same purpose but I had no involvement with this.
So accurate was the ground triangulation by the ground radar stations that we could place overlapping blast zones on to the desired future Landing Zones (LZ). It was impressive to see the results and especially so in dense forested areas. The denser the vegetation the cleaner and neater the future LZ.
Now, back to the secrecy question. Unfortunately, either Westmorland or Abrams, and I forget which now, had not cleared any Invasion/Incursion plans in to Cambodia with POTUS or Congress, never mind the preparatory work we were actively involved in. So to this extent it was far from being public knowledge and therefore secret. This secret state of affairs was to prevail for the first week or so of the actual incursion in first quarter 1970 due to COMMUSMACV's total control of the accredited press corps and their total exclusion from involvement or observation or reporting of the Incursion/Invasion, call it what you will. Of course, once the proverbial excreta hit the fan all hell broke lose at the highest political levels in Washington and at the Pentagon. But by this time I had DEROS ed out of country.
I hope that this provides some background and context.
Best regards. Ot Mean Loi
Because of my them MOS/ECN in late 1969 I was seconded at short notice to Cam Rahn Bay and was involved with Operation Commando Vault. Commando Vault was classified for quite a number of years but details are readily available on the internet these days.
In brief, we were involved in rigging ex WW11 10,000 pound bombs that had been sold as surplus in Europe, in Germany I believe, after the war so that the explosives could be reclaimed and turned in to fertilizer and the metal bomb casings used as scrap iron and recycled. However, some of these had to be repurchased by the US military at a considerably higher price and then shipped to Cam Rahn Bay for Op Commando Vault.
These 10,000 pound bombs were then fitted with a six foot fuse extension and then rigged on oregon and plywood combat expendable platforms (CEP). Once rigged, they were then fitted with a small drogue chute. We loaded two combat expendable platforms, each with one 10,000 pound bomb, in to a USAF C130 aircraft.
Sorties to Cambodia were mostly over Kien Svay province, the Parrot's Beak area as we called it then, and were always very early in the morning with take off well before first light, and with bomb release not long after first light, when ground and other winds were usually at their stillest for the day and the air moisture content was at its maximum and had not been burned off by the early sun. These were as close as one could hope to get to "still air" conditions in the tropics.
On the way to target area, the C130 would fly at various altitudes so that the controlling ground station radar stations using the radar Doppler effect could accurately calculate wind speed and directions and calculate a precise release point. On the final run in, the pilot would start well out from target area and the master ground radar station, there were up to three radar stations I believe, would give precise directions to the pilot as to altitude, airspeed and bearing/heading and he would correct accordingly Then would start, from memory, a twenty second count down to release. On the "execute" command, the load master popped the drogue chute which immediately pulled the CEP out of the aircraft. The very small drogue chute had only two purposes. Firstly to extract the loaded CEP from the aircraft by acting as a brake as the aircraft flew on and secondly to keep the 10,000 pound bomb falling vertically, fuse extension down. It was not intended to slow the fall of the bomb in any way at all as this would have exposed the falling bomb to any wind drift.
Once load was released, I would race back from the cargo hold to stand between the pilot and co pilot to observe the point of detonation and observe the semi-circular blast wave come very rapidly up from point of impact and through the aircraft and beyond. Now, the moisture in the air made this huge blast wave very easy indeed to see and it moved at a highly impressive speed. On my first release, the passing of the shock wave blast through the C130 really caught me by surprise and it felt and sounded to me as if every rivet in the aircraft had fallen out! Of course, the more seasoned aircrew always looked forward to having a first timer on board! We are all a virgin at something in our lives, even when it comes to dropping 10,000 dumb bombs from a C130 aircraft over Cambodia! Thereafter it becomes fun. Very late in this operation a 15,000 pound bomb was used for the same purpose but I had no involvement with this.
So accurate was the ground triangulation by the ground radar stations that we could place overlapping blast zones on to the desired future Landing Zones (LZ). It was impressive to see the results and especially so in dense forested areas. The denser the vegetation the cleaner and neater the future LZ.
Now, back to the secrecy question. Unfortunately, either Westmorland or Abrams, and I forget which now, had not cleared any Invasion/Incursion plans in to Cambodia with POTUS or Congress, never mind the preparatory work we were actively involved in. So to this extent it was far from being public knowledge and therefore secret. This secret state of affairs was to prevail for the first week or so of the actual incursion in first quarter 1970 due to COMMUSMACV's total control of the accredited press corps and their total exclusion from involvement or observation or reporting of the Incursion/Invasion, call it what you will. Of course, once the proverbial excreta hit the fan all hell broke lose at the highest political levels in Washington and at the Pentagon. But by this time I had DEROS ed out of country.
I hope that this provides some background and context.
Best regards. Ot Mean Loi
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In Ambassodor John Dean Gunther's autobiography he describes how the US govt forced him out of the foreign service after he got home by falsifying medical reports. Any doctor who took part in that is guilty of a serious crime.andyinasia wrote:Here's a very moving testimony from US Ambassador John Dean just published by AP
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... 9-21-49-47
Last edited by Timeslot Enigmatic on Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I've only just seen this.Ot Mean Loi wrote:I was involved with the preparations for the "Incursion" in to Cambodia in 1970 because of Operation Commando Vault.
...
Great stuff!
.
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
.Ot Mean Loi wrote:I was involved with the preparations for the "Incursion" in to Cambodia in 1970 because of Operation Commando Vault.
Because of my them MOS/ECN in late 1969 I was seconded at short notice to Cam Rahn Bay and was involved with Operation Commando Vault. Commando Vault was classified for quite a number of years but details are readily available on the internet these days.
In brief, we were involved in rigging ex WW11 10,000 pound bombs that had been sold as surplus in Europe, in Germany I believe, after the war so that the explosives could be reclaimed and turned in to fertilizer and the metal bomb casings used as scrap iron and recycled. However, some of these had to be repurchased by the US military at a considerably higher price and then shipped to Cam Rahn Bay for Op Commando Vault.
These 10,000 pound bombs were then fitted with a six foot fuse extension and then rigged on oregon and plywood combat expendable platforms (CEP). Once rigged, they were then fitted with a small drogue chute. We loaded two combat expendable platforms, each with one 10,000 pound bomb, in to a USAF C130 aircraft.
Sorties to Cambodia were mostly over Kien Svay province, the Parrot's Beak area as we called it then, and were always very early in the morning with take off well before first light, and with bomb release not long after first light, when ground and other winds were usually at their stillest for the day and the air moisture content was at its maximum and had not been burned off by the early sun. These were as close as one could hope to get to "still air" conditions in the tropics.
On the way to target area, the C130 would fly at various altitudes so that the controlling ground station radar stations using the radar Doppler effect could accurately calculate wind speed and directions and calculate a precise release point. On the final run in, the pilot would start well out from target area and the master ground radar station, there were up to three radar stations I believe, would give precise directions to the pilot as to altitude, airspeed and bearing/heading and he would correct accordingly Then would start, from memory, a twenty second count down to release. On the "execute" command, the load master popped the drogue chute which immediately pulled the CEP out of the aircraft. The very small drogue chute had only two purposes. Firstly to extract the loaded CEP from the aircraft by acting as a brake as the aircraft flew on and secondly to keep the 10,000 pound bomb falling vertically, fuse extension down. It was not intended to slow the fall of the bomb in any way at all as this would have exposed the falling bomb to any wind drift.
Once load was released, I would race back from the cargo hold to stand between the pilot and co pilot to observe the point of detonation and observe the semi-circular blast wave come very rapidly up from point of impact and through the aircraft and beyond. Now, the moisture in the air made this huge blast wave very easy indeed to see and it moved at a highly impressive speed. On my first release, the passing of the shock wave blast through the C130 really caught me by surprise and it felt and sounded to me as if every rivet in the aircraft had fallen out! Of course, the more seasoned aircrew always looked forward to having a first timer on board! We are all a virgin at something in our lives, even when it comes to dropping 10,000 dumb bombs from a C130 aircraft over Cambodia! Thereafter it becomes fun. Very late in this operation a 15,000 pound bomb was used for the same purpose but I had no involvement with this.
So accurate was the ground triangulation by the ground radar stations that we could place overlapping blast zones on to the desired future Landing Zones (LZ). It was impressive to see the results and especially so in dense forested areas. The denser the vegetation the cleaner and neater the future LZ.
Now, back to the secrecy question. Unfortunately, either Westmorland or Abrams, and I forget which now, had not cleared any Invasion/Incursion plans in to Cambodia with POTUS or Congress, never mind the preparatory work we were actively involved in. So to this extent it was far from being public knowledge and therefore secret. This secret state of affairs was to prevail for the first week or so of the actual incursion in first quarter 1970 due to COMMUSMACV's total control of the accredited press corps and their total exclusion from involvement or observation or reporting of the Incursion/Invasion, call it what you will. Of course, once the proverbial excreta hit the fan all hell broke lose at the highest political levels in Washington and at the Pentagon. But by this time I had DEROS ed out of country.
I hope that this provides some background and context.
Best regards. Ot Mean Loi
Awesome reading. Thanks again Sir.
Jep
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The photo above of 1965 Embassy is Street 144 opposite The Ice Palace...Lucky Lucan wrote:It's been at a few different locations. The first one I know of was on St 126:
It was the scene of some riots in 1965.
The building is still there, looking quite a bit rougher:
Opposite was the USOM(United States Operations Mission) building, which still looks much the same, it was refurbished a few years ago:
After diplomatic relations were resumed in the late 1960s it moved to the location mentioned above.
Then in the 1990's-early 2000's it was down around the 144/49 area you mentioned until it moved to the current location.
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Your VC defection numbers were ginned up for US consumption. In actuality the opposite is much more accurate. ( In the French conflict prior, For every 1 French soldier killed-the north lost 10. HCM's very public response was,"at that rate, we will still prevail.") The real VC defection numbers were shared with high level military personnel and definatly not with the US populous, (or low ranking soldiers on the ground) that began to see the war in a different and growingly unpopular light. Do you remember the Geneva accord, who's reccomendation for a general election were thwarted by the US? The US knew HCM would garnish a landslide victory. The Us still supported the KR covertly using back channels and ultimately never learned their lesson in a war that had so many similarities to it's own revolution. Pity, as that knowledge just might have thwarted the Iraq atrocity. Please show your source for said defection numbers. I do not take this subject likely. With the upmost of respect for your service and opinion. Sonickarmageddon1 wrote:ken svay wrote:I think the few hundred million that congress declined to give would have been wasted, as the war was lost long before this and getting arms and ammunition into the country was nearly impossible.
And the corrupt Khmer supply chain and the army of ghost soldiers made things worse. The corruption in both the south Vietnamese and Cambodian armies were legendary and the poor peasant foot soldiers had no motivation at all.
The differences in commitment between the KR, Viet Cong and North Vietnamese compared to the conscripts in the US sponsored armies were stark. The same of course for the US conscript army itself.
Blaming the peace movement and or the media for the loss is far too simplistic. We control the media nowadays and still don't win wars, whatever winning means.
I have to disagree Ken Svay.
You do know the defection numbers for the VC I trust. We're talking tens of thousands of them each year after 1968. Meanwhile, South Vietnamese troop defections to the communist side were basically zero.
And in 1975 the KR got knocked around as badly as the government soldiers did. 'Ghost soldiers', 'corruption' and all, the Lon Nol men were giving as good as they got. I absolutely assure you they had motivation.
Further, many KR were reluctant conscriptees while others were Sihanoukists who'd come to realize that Sihanouk was a nonentity in the KR, and hordes of KR would've defected to the government side if they could've.
Had the Lon Nol men been able to hold just a couple f months more until the rains then the KR morale would've crashed. The other key point in relation to this is that Saigon fell on April 30. That was why Pol Pot had hammered his men to capture PP before the NV could seize Saigon and 'resume their 'interest' in Cambodia.
As Pol Pot always saw the NV as the more evil of his 2 enemies, who can know what he might have decided to do had Phnom Penh held on through to June-July, with Hanoi (now fully aware of Pol Pot's intent to betray the Indochina Communist Party) able to concentrate resources back into Cambodia. Pol Pot would've been forced to react to this threat.
Freedom is not a state. It is an act. It is not some enchanted garden perched high on a distant plateau.. Freedom is a continuous action we all must take, and each generation must do its part to create an even more fair, more just society.-John Lewis
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You're right, I got the street numbers messed up in that post. I don't even know where St 126 is to be honest. The previous US embassy I mentioned was somewhere down off Pasteur just north of Sihanouk before it moved to its current location, I can't remember exactly where but there used to be quite a big cordon around the building. What's the Ice Palace?Chuck Wow wrote: The photo above of 1965 Embassy is Street 144 opposite The Ice Palace...
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
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