Forgotten History.
Yeah, I get it. But I also have very interesting and long chats with a local bigwig, who is a hive of information about Cambodia from the 60's to now. He pretty much experienced everything, from being in student riots outside the US embassy to surviving Pol Pot (as a upper-middle class educated student), liberation, involvement in politics as PRK governor and rise up, his role in K5, the peace, the coup and everything after. He seems to enjoy being able to discuss stuff openly and off the record.
Yes, he's made a fortune and his wife is very good at business, but his own reflections (which are not always positive) are often not always in agreement with the history we know, and sometimes give a parallel point of view. Above all, he did what he had to to survive, and by playing the right game and keeping on the right side with his head just down enough to avoid trouble, he's done pretty well. He's also well respected by the people for his public projects in the province.
Could he do more? Probably, but he's a good example, to me, that not everybody in the government is a massively corrupt, land grabbing enemy of democracy.
I'd like to publish some of his memoirs, but there are some sensitive subjects. I can, however forward any questions about political history and let you know what his replies are.
Yes, he's made a fortune and his wife is very good at business, but his own reflections (which are not always positive) are often not always in agreement with the history we know, and sometimes give a parallel point of view. Above all, he did what he had to to survive, and by playing the right game and keeping on the right side with his head just down enough to avoid trouble, he's done pretty well. He's also well respected by the people for his public projects in the province.
Could he do more? Probably, but he's a good example, to me, that not everybody in the government is a massively corrupt, land grabbing enemy of democracy.
I'd like to publish some of his memoirs, but there are some sensitive subjects. I can, however forward any questions about political history and let you know what his replies are.
Massive stalker
Interesting stuff, and I would agree that a lot of the history as Cambodians see it is often not the version the West projects in its English writings and translations. I think sometimes the Cambodians are wrong, and sometimes the western versions are also.pedros wrote:Yeah, I get it. But I also have very interesting and long chats with a local bigwig, who is a hive of information about Cambodia from the 60's to now. He pretty much experienced everything, from being in student riots outside the US embassy to surviving Pol Pot (as a upper-middle class educated student), liberation, involvement in politics as PRK governor and rise up, his role in K5, the peace, the coup and everything after. He seems to enjoy being able to discuss stuff openly and off the record.
Yes, he's made a fortune and his wife is very good at business, but his own reflections (which are not always positive) are often not always in agreement with the history we know, and sometimes give a parallel point of view. Above all, he did what he had to to survive, and by playing the right game and keeping on the right side with his head just down enough to avoid trouble, he's done pretty well. He's also well respected by the people for his public projects in the province.
Could he do more? Probably, but he's a good example, to me, that not everybody in the government is a massively corrupt, land grabbing enemy of democracy.
I'd like to publish some of his memoirs, but there are some sensitive subjects. I can, however forward any questions about political history and let you know what his replies are.
The idea that is just the CPP that have benefited over the years of their power has been pretty much wide-spread in our media, but how many of the CNRP are, in fact, doing quite well? Are the CPP withholding them from the money as well as the power? Obviously not talking about sand and wood here, but how many have grabbed land or are running very successful businesses?
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The noteworthy aspect of the OP is that years after FUNCINPEC’s electoral win, the news report is making mention of the military and police not as government forces but as CPP, FUNCINPEC, and BLDP.
OK, there is the odd reference … ‘government uniform’, ‘government administration’, and ‘(CPP aligned) government soldiers and officials’.
In his analysis, LL indulges in deception by omission.
Had he informed why there were factional forces rather than a military which served the people through the elected government, then it would have provided a whole new slant on things by filling in much of what he deliberately chose to overlook.
And LL could have enhanced clarification had he deigned to explain why the FUNCINPEC electoral winners felt it imperative to strengthen themselves militarily as the next election loomed.
And LL really does need to justify his OP ‘traitorous’ reference. Exactly how were those mentioned actions thus?
As an associated reflection on that, a few days into the coup I saw CPP-aligned troops that seemed to have come straight out of the bush. Having laid eyes on Cambodian soldiers of various factions over the decades, I must say that these notably aged guys were by far the wildest, scrawniest, roughest, most unkempt bunch ever, and at the time of observation they had each just been rewarded with a brand-new motorbike … plundered from sales yards of course.
The city roads were still ultra-quiet and virtually empty but a small clump of about a dozen of us, all ordinary Khmer plus myself, stood and watched as it happened, and I vividly recall our absolute silence for we all knew who they were and what was going on, and with all of us silently grim at the blatant looting of the bikes.
Those soldiers were very-long-time KR from way, way out in the sticks. So LL by your own reckoning do you brand the CPP a traitorous clique?
OK, there is the odd reference … ‘government uniform’, ‘government administration’, and ‘(CPP aligned) government soldiers and officials’.
In his analysis, LL indulges in deception by omission.
Had he informed why there were factional forces rather than a military which served the people through the elected government, then it would have provided a whole new slant on things by filling in much of what he deliberately chose to overlook.
And LL could have enhanced clarification had he deigned to explain why the FUNCINPEC electoral winners felt it imperative to strengthen themselves militarily as the next election loomed.
And LL really does need to justify his OP ‘traitorous’ reference. Exactly how were those mentioned actions thus?
As an associated reflection on that, a few days into the coup I saw CPP-aligned troops that seemed to have come straight out of the bush. Having laid eyes on Cambodian soldiers of various factions over the decades, I must say that these notably aged guys were by far the wildest, scrawniest, roughest, most unkempt bunch ever, and at the time of observation they had each just been rewarded with a brand-new motorbike … plundered from sales yards of course.
The city roads were still ultra-quiet and virtually empty but a small clump of about a dozen of us, all ordinary Khmer plus myself, stood and watched as it happened, and I vividly recall our absolute silence for we all knew who they were and what was going on, and with all of us silently grim at the blatant looting of the bikes.
Those soldiers were very-long-time KR from way, way out in the sticks. So LL by your own reckoning do you brand the CPP a traitorous clique?
.
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
- Lucky Lucan
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I expected anyone interested to know, or find out, the background themselves. I was commenting on a news article, not writing a history.karmageddon1 wrote: Had he informed why there were factional forces rather than a military which served the people through the elected government, then it would have provided a whole new slant on things by filling in much of what he deliberately chose to overlook.
It's well-known that there were defections all through the 1990s.Those soldiers were very-long-time KR from way, way out in the sticks.
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
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This was the mainstay of your OP contention and indignity.Lucky Lucan wrote: Nhek Bun Chhay has defected since, the others are still trying to drag this nation back into war.
Yet that whole situation described in the OP article only came about because the CPP itself threatened war if they, as losers of the UNTAC election, (38 per cent, and with most of those votes gained through intimidation) were not granted an equal share of power.
Your OP 'analysis' neglected crucial relevant background details: in consequence, that omission of context resulted in any reader of this thread being told the effect but not the cause ... and as such it was blatant deception.
And you've bypassed explaining how FUNCINPEC-Rainsy were 'treacherous'. Now you just brush it off with 'defections were common' in the period.
.
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
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karmageddon1 wrote: Yet that whole situation described in the OP article only came about because the CPP itself threatened war.
That's your take, as usual you have a completely one-sided view. The article was about events in early 1997, it's not a history of the period.
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
icle
Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
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LL, you continue being disingenuous.Lucky Lucan wrote: The article was about events in early 1997, it's not a history of the period.
Of course the OP article was not a history. It didn't need to be, because when it was published 20 years ago the expat readers in Cambodia at the time all understood the background and didn't need to be filled in.
But by reviving that article two decades on, you are exploiting current general vagueness about that now far-off period by tacking to it a distorted pro-CPP propaganda commentary then presenting the whole thing as a document of historical significance ... just look at the heading you accorded this thread.
Your post deliberately omitted the context with which readers perused the story 20 years ago: (abridged from my kindle) The CPP had been placed in power when the Vietnamese seized Cambodia in 1979. Prior to the 1993 vote, the CPP pledged to concede power if they lost that initial election. But upon their heavy defeat they reneged, threatening secession of the Eastern zone and war if they were not granted equal power. To meek UN compliance, Sihanouk brokered agreement to that latter outcome.
But this only legitimized covert continuation of CPP control of Cambodia for they held overwhelming military advantage; the village chiefs who controlled 80 per cent of the population remained in place as CPP loyalists; and the CPP retained effective control of all state organs and ministries, with the FUNCINPEC electoral winners left with nothing but symbolic power. Three years on (when the OP article was penned), aware that they were militarily outmuscled and vulnerable to coup before the next election could be staged, and of the opinion that the CPP had already initiated several aborted attempts to seize sole authority, FUNCINPEC discussed alignment with the remaining Khmer Rouge rebels … and at the exact same time the CPP itself was engaged in trying to bribe or coerce those exact same Khmer Rouge to link with them instead so as to deny FUNCINPEC the means to resist an outright CPP coup (that coup eventuated some months later, and the CPP have manipulated all subsequent elections).
LL, you have replicated that 1997 article two decades down the line when, at a wild guesstimate, 70 per cent of current expats in Cambodia would have no idea who or what FUNCINPEC ever was (let alone the BLDP), with many of the remainder vague at best … and by posting on the internet then potentially anyone anywhere can read it … and with just about everyone needing to rely on your tack-on misinformation for 'clarification'.
I hold that it is calculated, intended deceit.
And you haven't even attempted to justify the 'treacherous' slur you injected into the OP.
(if this gets through then thanks Gavinmac for 'test'. I almost immediately got shutdown on Speakeasy. Hopefully the censor is currently in the toilet.)
.
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
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This is the history and culture forum. If someone doesn't know a reference, they are always welcome to look it up themselves, but in this case I gave a quick run-down of the parties involved in these maneuvers anyway. You should try to understand that there are many ways of looking at an issue, and it helps to have an open mind. Thanks for repeating your usual "blame the Vietnamese/ blame the CPP" line though, that was a real boon.karmageddon1 wrote:LL, you continue being disingenuous.Lucky Lucan wrote: The article was about events in early 1997, it's not a history of the period.
Of course the OP article was not a history. It didn't need to be, because when it was published 20 years ago the expat readers in Cambodia at the time all understood the background and didn't need to be filled in.
But by reviving that article two decades on, you are exploiting current general vagueness about that now far-off period by tacking to it a distorted pro-CPP propaganda commentary then presenting the whole thing as a document of historical significance ... just look at the heading you accorded this thread.
LL, you have replicated that 1997 article two decades down the line when, at a wild guesstimate, 70 per cent of current expats in Cambodia would have no idea who or what FUNCINPEC ever was (let alone the BLDP), with many of the remainder vague at best … and by posting on the internet then potentially anyone anywhere can read it … and with just about everyone needing to rely on your tack-on misinformation for 'clarification'.
I hold that it is calculated, intended deceit.
And you haven't even attempted to justify the 'treacherous' slur you injected into the OP.
(if this gets through then thanks Gavinmac for 'test'. I almost immediately got shutdown on Speakeasy. Hopefully the censor is currently in the toilet.)
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
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LL, I'm not to blame if all facts and evidence point in one direction.Lucky Lucan wrote: Thanks for repeating your usual "blame the Vietnamese/ blame the CPP" line though, that was a real boon.
And those realities mean that I don't have to concoct the kind of clap-trap 'poor innocent victimized CPP' that you invented in your OP.
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* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
LL, how much of a clusterfuck was the whole Ranna/FUNCINPEC govrnment, in your opinion? My sources are somewhat biased on the issue, but nobody seems to have a good word to say about their time in power.
Massive stalker
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FUNCINPEC only got in by utilizing Sihanouk’s name, and although the prince’s tenure through the 1960s was truly disastrous it looked sublime compared to what followed.pedros wrote: ... how much of a clusterfuck was the whole Ranna/FUNCINPEC government ...?
For mine, FUNCINPEC were calamitous. Our household included a member of the National Assembly for that party, so I got a more up close and personal look than most.
The original proposal was that the UN run Cambodia for the first few years after the election to allow the country to consolidate, and that might have resulted in a completely different Cambodia today. But those who were intent on immediate looting couldn’t wait to get started and so they threw in the ‘nationalist’ argument, saying that Cambodia needed to immediately demonstrate its independence. And having the UN around would interfere with the CPP plot to regain power through eventual coup.
Because Rainsy as Minister of Finance in the initial government tried to strangle the developing corruption, Rannaridth and HE collaborated to remove him from office.
The abomination that was FUNCINPEC is no defense of LL’s sycophantic pro-CPP stance in this thread. It was for the Cambodian people to decide in the election who their government would be, and they made their choice.
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* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
* my 99 cent Kindle memories of 1974 CAMBODIA: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO *
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