The Vietnam War doco
The Vietnam War doco
Anyone watching this? In Australia we have had four episodes so far and it is excellent. There is loads of new footage as well as interviews with all sorts of people, American and Vietnamese.
All episodes were online months ago (download them from torrent sites), there was a thread about it before. I watched all, and found it excellent, Vlad, however didn't agree.
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I liked the recordings of LBJ who did not want to be involved with the place and saying that he had better things to do. His plan was to spend heaps on The Great Society or something like that. Huge spending on social programmes that all went up in smoke in SE Asia.
This might be interesting to you, LBJ and Harold Wilson- why the Brits didn't join in...crazyjohn wrote:I liked the recordings of LBJ who did not want to be involved with the place and saying that he had better things to do. His plan was to spend heaps on The Great Society or something like that. Huge spending on social programmes that all went up in smoke in SE Asia.
http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Wilsonjohnson.htm
I've read elsewhere there were around 2,000 British soldiers in Nam, either by de-enlisting from the UK army and re-enlisting as Aussie/Kiwis, or SAS trainers who'd already done extensive jungle ops in Malaya...
hang on, found it
As well as providing regional intelligence, Britain supplied military hardware through back channels and gave training in jungle warfare to US special forces. British soldiers also signed up to fight. It is estimated that as many as 2,000 Britons were on the ground in Vietnam; individuals simply resigned from the army and re-enlisted in Australian or New Zealand fighting units. Other documents reveal that SAS soldiers were given civilian status in US units ‘so that their British military identity is lost’.
US night-bombing raids over Laos were flown out of a specially-built British air base in Thailand and British ships supported US commando river missions into Cambodia as well as stemming supply lines to the Communist North Vietnamese.
As early as 1961 President Kennedy requested UK training for American troops in jungle warfare. It was granted; there were no US soldiers in Vietnam at that time.
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Pedros,
Please quote your source for this quotation...As well as providing regional intelligence, Britain supplied military hardware through back channels and gave training in jungle warfare to US special forces. British soldiers also signed up to fight. It is estimated that as many as 2,000 Britons were on the ground in Vietnam; individuals simply resigned from the army and re-enlisted in Australian or New Zealand fighting units. Other documents reveal that SAS soldiers were given civilian status in US units ‘so that their British military identity is lost’... Because it is incorect.
For the record, post WW11, Australia maintained a small Australian Army Staff at Australia House in the Strand, London - known within the Australian Army as AAS London. One of the duties of the AAS London was to recruit, selectively, former British servicemen with military trades/skills/occupations that were proving difficult to recruit in Australia. Australia House also selectively recruited for the RAN and RAAF. This staff function of AAS London well and truly predates any American involvement in South Viet Nam SVN as it then was.
Within the Australian Army such persons were known as UK Enlistees and we were all given an Australian Service Number/Regimental Number beginning with...3/... known as "Three Oblique" which is the prefix number for Australians recruited in to the post WW11 Regular Army for the very good reason that none of us had, at enlistment in to the Australian Regular Army - ARA - an Australian State or Territory afiliation, and the then Australian Central Army Records Office - CARO - was and still is based in Melbourne, Victoria. Shortly after my own enlistment as a UK Enlistee in to the Royal Australian Infantry Corps the whole army dropped the use of "Obliques" in service numbers as being unnecessary as the initial number was sufficient in its own right to identify a soldier's origin. CARO had set aside a very large block of service numbers for this purpose, which were allocated sequentially, and allocated to each of us on our enlistment. As such, we and others in the army could readily identify who we were.
One had to have been honourably discharged from the British Army. Sign on for a six (6) year period of service and without restriction as to where and in what capacity one would serve on behalf of Australia. In addition, you had to surrender your British Passport for a period of two years and your passport was held by CARO during this time. You also had to swear the Australian Oath of Allegiance. Applicants were only accepted after fully being police and security background checked and passing the Australian army medical standards etc.
On arrival in Australia we were exempt from recruit training on the grounds that we were already trained and experienced soldiers. However, and very wisely in retrospect, we all had to undergo full Australian Corp training due to the considerable differences between the way our respective armies operate. There are significant differences.
I, myself, am a UK Enlistee, a "Three Obliquer". I signed on for the six years originally thinking it would be something of an all expenses paid adventure, with free board and lodgings and, compared to British service - very good rates of pay. Further more, this "Military Migration" did not require the payment of the then ten pounds sterling that other migrants to Australia had to pay! Somewhat to my surprise in January 1961 I was made draft conduct office- DCO - for a very mixed bunch of very experienced former British soldiers and I had to get them sober from London to Sydney and then hand over my draft to the then Eastern Command Personnel Depot then at Watsons Bay, Sydney. No easy task as the flight was in a then new QANTAS Boeing 707 aircraft and the flight took three days - London - Rome - Cairo - Calcuttaa - Bombay - Bangkok - Darwin - Sydney.
This statement alone is an absurdity:... that as many as 2,000 Britons were on the ground in Vietnam;...
Whilst it is very much the "Forgotten War" large numbers of UK Enlistees served in the Australian Army in Korea. And in many other parts of Asia where Australia had a military commitment and especially so during the very long post WW11 period in Malaya/Malay Peninsula/Malaysia dealing, firstly, with disarming those element we had armed to help fight the Japanese of which many became Communist Terrorists - CT followed by the Malay Emergency followed by Konfrontasi with Indonesia never mind the Borneo Campaign. The Australian army had highly developed jungle fighting skills well honed during this long involvement in South East Asai -SEA - and which we took to SVN with us. I am proud to have been a UK Enlistee serving in the Australian Army as an infantry section commander in C Company, the Third Battalion, the Royal Australian Regiment - C Coy 3 RAR -at that time.
My supposed six year adventure became a 26 year career in the Australian Army and I became an Australian citizen long ago, as indeed, did so many UK Enlistees.
I, too, served in SVN as an Australian Army unit commander in 1969 and am following this excellent programme with great interest.
So, long winded as the above is, I hope it brings some context and objectivity to the topic. I could go on but it is not necessary to do so.
OML
Please quote your source for this quotation...As well as providing regional intelligence, Britain supplied military hardware through back channels and gave training in jungle warfare to US special forces. British soldiers also signed up to fight. It is estimated that as many as 2,000 Britons were on the ground in Vietnam; individuals simply resigned from the army and re-enlisted in Australian or New Zealand fighting units. Other documents reveal that SAS soldiers were given civilian status in US units ‘so that their British military identity is lost’... Because it is incorect.
For the record, post WW11, Australia maintained a small Australian Army Staff at Australia House in the Strand, London - known within the Australian Army as AAS London. One of the duties of the AAS London was to recruit, selectively, former British servicemen with military trades/skills/occupations that were proving difficult to recruit in Australia. Australia House also selectively recruited for the RAN and RAAF. This staff function of AAS London well and truly predates any American involvement in South Viet Nam SVN as it then was.
Within the Australian Army such persons were known as UK Enlistees and we were all given an Australian Service Number/Regimental Number beginning with...3/... known as "Three Oblique" which is the prefix number for Australians recruited in to the post WW11 Regular Army for the very good reason that none of us had, at enlistment in to the Australian Regular Army - ARA - an Australian State or Territory afiliation, and the then Australian Central Army Records Office - CARO - was and still is based in Melbourne, Victoria. Shortly after my own enlistment as a UK Enlistee in to the Royal Australian Infantry Corps the whole army dropped the use of "Obliques" in service numbers as being unnecessary as the initial number was sufficient in its own right to identify a soldier's origin. CARO had set aside a very large block of service numbers for this purpose, which were allocated sequentially, and allocated to each of us on our enlistment. As such, we and others in the army could readily identify who we were.
One had to have been honourably discharged from the British Army. Sign on for a six (6) year period of service and without restriction as to where and in what capacity one would serve on behalf of Australia. In addition, you had to surrender your British Passport for a period of two years and your passport was held by CARO during this time. You also had to swear the Australian Oath of Allegiance. Applicants were only accepted after fully being police and security background checked and passing the Australian army medical standards etc.
On arrival in Australia we were exempt from recruit training on the grounds that we were already trained and experienced soldiers. However, and very wisely in retrospect, we all had to undergo full Australian Corp training due to the considerable differences between the way our respective armies operate. There are significant differences.
I, myself, am a UK Enlistee, a "Three Obliquer". I signed on for the six years originally thinking it would be something of an all expenses paid adventure, with free board and lodgings and, compared to British service - very good rates of pay. Further more, this "Military Migration" did not require the payment of the then ten pounds sterling that other migrants to Australia had to pay! Somewhat to my surprise in January 1961 I was made draft conduct office- DCO - for a very mixed bunch of very experienced former British soldiers and I had to get them sober from London to Sydney and then hand over my draft to the then Eastern Command Personnel Depot then at Watsons Bay, Sydney. No easy task as the flight was in a then new QANTAS Boeing 707 aircraft and the flight took three days - London - Rome - Cairo - Calcuttaa - Bombay - Bangkok - Darwin - Sydney.
This statement alone is an absurdity:... that as many as 2,000 Britons were on the ground in Vietnam;...
Whilst it is very much the "Forgotten War" large numbers of UK Enlistees served in the Australian Army in Korea. And in many other parts of Asia where Australia had a military commitment and especially so during the very long post WW11 period in Malaya/Malay Peninsula/Malaysia dealing, firstly, with disarming those element we had armed to help fight the Japanese of which many became Communist Terrorists - CT followed by the Malay Emergency followed by Konfrontasi with Indonesia never mind the Borneo Campaign. The Australian army had highly developed jungle fighting skills well honed during this long involvement in South East Asai -SEA - and which we took to SVN with us. I am proud to have been a UK Enlistee serving in the Australian Army as an infantry section commander in C Company, the Third Battalion, the Royal Australian Regiment - C Coy 3 RAR -at that time.
My supposed six year adventure became a 26 year career in the Australian Army and I became an Australian citizen long ago, as indeed, did so many UK Enlistees.
I, too, served in SVN as an Australian Army unit commander in 1969 and am following this excellent programme with great interest.
So, long winded as the above is, I hope it brings some context and objectivity to the topic. I could go on but it is not necessary to do so.
OML
- KampongThomas
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OML, i always appreciate your contributions to this forum.
After watching the series, it seems Ken Burns put the blame on Westmoreland.
After watching the series, it seems Ken Burns put the blame on Westmoreland.
oml, I'll find the link when I'm back on my work PC, I wouldn't take it for gospel, but, as you informed us, you were a Brit fighting under the Australian flag, is it inconceivable there were another thousand odd in the same situation?
I'm always interested in your posts on the subject.
What do you know about BRIAM?
https://thevietnamwar.info/united-kingd ... etnam-war/
I'm always interested in your posts on the subject.
What do you know about BRIAM?
https://thevietnamwar.info/united-kingd ... etnam-war/
The United Kingdom’s support for Diem
During 1950s and 1960s, British “power by proxy” policy placed Anglo-American relationships at the center of its foreign policy. Its government, therefore, was fully supportive of American containment policy in general and its intervention in Vietnam in early 1960s in particular, stating Viet Cong domination in rural areas of South Vietnam was unacceptable. This resulted in the establishment of a British advisory group in South Vietnam known as Bristish Advisory Mission to South Vietnam (BRIAM) in September 1961 upon a request of South Vietnamese President Diem. Robert Thompson who had gained tremendous experience in 12-year-long anti-guerrilla-warfare in Malaya led the group and soon became one of Diem’s leading foreign advisors.
Although British government continually claimed BRIAM was purely a civilian team, it involved in training of American and around 300 South Vietnamese troops in guerilla tactics and counter-insurgency at their two jungle warfare schools in Malaya, one at Johor and one at Kota Tinggi during 1962-1963.
One of BRIAM and the U.K.’s main contribution to the war, however, was Thompson’s counter-insurgency programs, based on the counter-insurgency technique successfully used in Malaya Emergency in the 1950s. In fact, Thompson’s Delta Plan drafted in late 1961 was at the heart of the U.S. Strategic Hamlets Program.
British Covert Assistance
In August 1962, in a letter written the War Office in London, the British military attaché to Saigon, Colonel Le included a proposal of Richard Noone – an advisor to Malayan government stating that Special Air Service (SAS) units could be deployed to Vietnam. Although rejecting this proposal as it would undermine Britain’s position as the co-chair of the Geneva Convention, he suggested to detach SAS regiment members and give them temporary civilian status or attach them to American Special Forces so that Britain could assist America in dealing with the Montagnard tribes (nguoi Thuong) against the Viet Cong while British military identity was hidden.
This plan was approved. A Special Forces team led by Richard Noone, comprising ethnic Malayo-Polynesian tribesmen, was sent to Vietnam under the cover of BRIAM’s “Noone mission”. The mission began to operate in the summer of 1962 until at least late 1963.
Other British convert assistance to American struggle in Vietnam included their secret flights from Hong Kong to deliver arms, especially bombs and napalm as well as intelligence support provided by MI6 station in Hanoi and British monitoring station in Hong Kong until the fall of Saigon in 1975. Those interception of North Vietnamese intelligence would be used together with U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) stations in the Philippines and Thailand to target bombing strikes over North Vietnam. This was acted under Australian operations.
In addition, Royal Navy had training exercises with the South Vietnamese navy while Royal Engineers helped construct American air bases in Thailand from which both Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Air Force (USAF) aircraft flew missions throughout South East Asia, including raids into Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
British Troops in Vietnam
Although the U.K. did not officially send any British troops to Vietnam, there are reportedly many British servicemen served in Vietnam not in British units but through the resignation – re-enlistment process from British to U.S., Australian or New Zealand military forces as mentioned above. This was similar to the Canadians – although Canada like Britain had no official military involvement in the Vietnam War, many Canadians enlisted in the U.S. forces and subsequently served in Vietnam. That process would be reversed upon their completion of tour of duty in Vietnam. They were discharged from the allies’ forces and re-enlisted into British Army again
Apart from the BRIAM, there were other units operating directly out of the British Embassy in Saigon such as the usual military attaché staff, the Royal Military Police, the Intelligence Corps. When the BRIAM was disbanded in March 1965, they continued to help train South Vietnamese police.
To conclude, there was a tangible British commitment and direct involvement in Vietnam in the first half of the 1960s albeit deemed “insignificant” by Foreign Office. This commitment continued in a small way after the war was escalated in 1965.
Stay tuned for our upcoming articles: Why did the U.K. not involve directly in Vietnam? & Did the U.K. support the U.S. in the Vietnam War?
P.S. If you know any stories of British servicemen served in Vietnam, please let us know in the comment below or drop us an email at [email protected].
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Kampong Thomas.
Thanks for your kind words.
KHMER440 could be a great forum but will never be so, because every time we get an inteligent thread/topic going along comes some mindless morons to saboutage things. Which, of course, puts an end to further meaningful contributions to the original topic.Certainly for me it does.
I've just noticed a couple of typos/errors in my posting.
Corp should, of couse, be Corps as in military corps of arm or service.
And the route of our very long flight from London to Sydney, was, of course - London - Rome - Cairo - Karachi - Calcutta - Bangkok - Darwin - Sydney. It was a long haul and we were all very glad to finally arrive.
Pedros - if there were as many as 25 UK Enlistees in the Australian Army serving in SVN at any one time, in all ranks and capacities, in any one year, starting with our involvement in 1962, I would be exaggerating. Australia introduced conscription to fill it's ranks in SVN.
All sorts of wild and wolly proposals were made to try and get elements of UK, Commonwealth and "Colonial" forces involved in SVN and they all fell on deaf ears in the UK and rightly so. It's a pity the same can't be said about Australia as it would have saved 521 Australian lives and about 4,400 wounded.
In fact it was the Australian Ted Sarong who became the adviser on COIN - Counter Insugency Warfare. Further more, it was an Australian, Barry Petersen, who went to SVN and formed the Montagnard Forces so effectively. Just Google either or both of them. Barry Petersen, Military Cross, is still alive and living in the Bangkok metropolitan area. His story is a fascinating one and as I understand things a film is shortly to be made about "Tiger Man" and his hill tribe warriors.
What British military equipment was provided to SVN? None I venture to suggest as it would have been mostly incompatible with that used by USAFVN and the SVN forces. The British army at that time was focused on Europe and particulary BAOR and its NATO commitments. It was the height of the Cold War. Australia was focused on our SEATO commitments and allies. Totally different theatres of war with totally different requirements.
OML
Thanks for your kind words.
KHMER440 could be a great forum but will never be so, because every time we get an inteligent thread/topic going along comes some mindless morons to saboutage things. Which, of course, puts an end to further meaningful contributions to the original topic.Certainly for me it does.
I've just noticed a couple of typos/errors in my posting.
Corp should, of couse, be Corps as in military corps of arm or service.
And the route of our very long flight from London to Sydney, was, of course - London - Rome - Cairo - Karachi - Calcutta - Bangkok - Darwin - Sydney. It was a long haul and we were all very glad to finally arrive.
Pedros - if there were as many as 25 UK Enlistees in the Australian Army serving in SVN at any one time, in all ranks and capacities, in any one year, starting with our involvement in 1962, I would be exaggerating. Australia introduced conscription to fill it's ranks in SVN.
All sorts of wild and wolly proposals were made to try and get elements of UK, Commonwealth and "Colonial" forces involved in SVN and they all fell on deaf ears in the UK and rightly so. It's a pity the same can't be said about Australia as it would have saved 521 Australian lives and about 4,400 wounded.
In fact it was the Australian Ted Sarong who became the adviser on COIN - Counter Insugency Warfare. Further more, it was an Australian, Barry Petersen, who went to SVN and formed the Montagnard Forces so effectively. Just Google either or both of them. Barry Petersen, Military Cross, is still alive and living in the Bangkok metropolitan area. His story is a fascinating one and as I understand things a film is shortly to be made about "Tiger Man" and his hill tribe warriors.
What British military equipment was provided to SVN? None I venture to suggest as it would have been mostly incompatible with that used by USAFVN and the SVN forces. The British army at that time was focused on Europe and particulary BAOR and its NATO commitments. It was the height of the Cold War. Australia was focused on our SEATO commitments and allies. Totally different theatres of war with totally different requirements.
OML
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Khmer440 can be many things at the same time. Without trying to derailing this good conversation, I believe that there is room here for serious and historical discussions such as this, and for conversations about the weather (isn't it nice out??) or restaurants to visit, etc. If you notice, different forums are moderated differently. That being said, we're not going to delete every single slightly off topic post. Even you yourself, despite all of your excellent posts, manage to piss off posters with a number of posts. No one, nor one forum, is perfect. Oh yea, I PMed you the other day, if you'd like to respond. (If anyone would like to discuss this further we can do so in Sound Off.)Ot Mean Loi wrote:
KHMER440 could be a great forum but will never be so, because every time we get an inteligent thread/topic going along comes some mindless morons to saboutage things. Which, of course, puts an end to further meaningful contributions to the original topic.Certainly for me it does.
I've just noticed a couple of typos/errors in my posting.
Also, you have 24 hours to edit posts if you've noticed typos, etc. Or, if it's something actually important, you can also message me after that amount of time to make a change.
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You PM'd me? News to me?
Also seems that the ability to express a view on forum about Khmer440 has been removed. So be it. It's your ball so you get to take it home when you don't like something.
OML
Also seems that the ability to express a view on forum about Khmer440 has been removed. So be it. It's your ball so you get to take it home when you don't like something.
OML
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worth watching; PBS
https://1337x.to/torrent/1148202/Last-D ... 264-USURY/
also
http://www.thestory.org/stories/2012-05 ... aigon-1975
https://1337x.to/torrent/1148202/Last-D ... 264-USURY/
also
http://www.thestory.org/stories/2012-05 ... aigon-1975
"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer." HST
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