Martial Law in Thailand
- spitthedog
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But look at the absolutely massive rise in India's rice exports as it steps in to take advantage.
Does it mean this one trick pony can at least read after all ?
Does it mean this one trick pony can at least read after all ?
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
- Jacked Camry
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You haven't understood anything I've written as evidenced by your responses, or you simply haven't got the chops to come up with a decent counter-argument. You simply keep sending back the only thing you got, which is "LOOK! THAKSIN BAD MAN!" Sadly, you can't even do that very well, all you keep doing is harping on the rice scheme. Come back when you can formulate a decent argument won't you? In the meantime, I'm ignoring you until you come up with something different or address any of the multitude of points I made in my previous posts. I will provide a response to BLboy who asked a difficult but reasonable question. I know you won't, because that is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond your ability in regard to this subject.spitthedog wrote:But look at the absolutely massive rise in India's rice exports as it steps in to take advantage.
Does it mean this one trick pony can at least read after all ?
- Falcon Randwick
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JC, I appreciate your on-the-ground knowledge and experience and I read the various stories of the vote buying on both sides, but what you neglect to mention is the initial election of Thaksin in 2001. At that time vote buying was at its absolute zenith and TRT poured considerably more into this corrupt practice than anyone else. It was calculated, I can't recall where so I can't give sources, that it cost a mere US$50 million for Thaksin to buy his first election, pocket change for him. While I was resident in Mukdahan I personally spoke with people who shared in that largesse.
It should be pointed out, though, that it was not the individual Isarn resident who benefitted the most, but the tambon chiefs to whom the money was distributed who doled out money and put on TRT local events. Much of the money stuck to the inside of their pockets and voters were actually paid as little as 300 baht for their vote. How much one was paid depended greatly on how much influence that particular person wielded in the area. Indeed, tuk tuk and songthaew drivers who adorned their vehicles with TRT banners were given substantially more than the average rice farmer as they interacted on a daily basis with more people.
Prior to his first election push, Thaksin was virtually unheard of outside of his natural constituency in the Lanna country of the far north. It certainly was the firehosing of northeast constituencies in the northeast by floods of Thaksin's own cash which enabled him to become a household name in the first place. Despite your unwillingness to concede on any point in this debate, vote buying by TRT in those days was the most influential aspect of Thaksin earliest poll results. It did take the entrenched elite by surprise and they were in no way prepared, nor affluent enough to compete.
So don't discount vote buying as a factor. It was the subsequent policies which Thaksin put into place, particularly the (almost) free healthcare system -of which - myself have been a beneficiary, as a government employee I was covered by the scheme- as well as other locally-based economic activities which cemented his base, but that all came later once he'd bought his way into power. The Thais are sanguine, for the most part, about this type of financial patronage which had been going on since forever, Thaksin simply ratcheted it up to a notch never quite experienced before by the rural poor.
I personally think Thaksin is an utterly shameless mass-murdering cunt, but that's nothing to do with his vote buying but more to do with the state-sponsored extra-judicial executions which did nothing to reduce the amount of narcotics in the country but simply served to drive up the price of yaba from 30 baht a pill to 300. Ask yourself who was the biggest beneficiary of this program. Keep in mind that Thaksin's home province of Chiang Mai shares a 287 kilometre border with Myanmar, and that Thaksin's hand-picked border guards had the task to interrupt the flow (or otherwise) of ATS into the country. Thaksin, of course, was the head of the police intelligence unit -read spy network- almost until the time he ran for Prime Minister.
And don't get me started on what the prick kicked off in the deep south...
It should be pointed out, though, that it was not the individual Isarn resident who benefitted the most, but the tambon chiefs to whom the money was distributed who doled out money and put on TRT local events. Much of the money stuck to the inside of their pockets and voters were actually paid as little as 300 baht for their vote. How much one was paid depended greatly on how much influence that particular person wielded in the area. Indeed, tuk tuk and songthaew drivers who adorned their vehicles with TRT banners were given substantially more than the average rice farmer as they interacted on a daily basis with more people.
Prior to his first election push, Thaksin was virtually unheard of outside of his natural constituency in the Lanna country of the far north. It certainly was the firehosing of northeast constituencies in the northeast by floods of Thaksin's own cash which enabled him to become a household name in the first place. Despite your unwillingness to concede on any point in this debate, vote buying by TRT in those days was the most influential aspect of Thaksin earliest poll results. It did take the entrenched elite by surprise and they were in no way prepared, nor affluent enough to compete.
So don't discount vote buying as a factor. It was the subsequent policies which Thaksin put into place, particularly the (almost) free healthcare system -of which - myself have been a beneficiary, as a government employee I was covered by the scheme- as well as other locally-based economic activities which cemented his base, but that all came later once he'd bought his way into power. The Thais are sanguine, for the most part, about this type of financial patronage which had been going on since forever, Thaksin simply ratcheted it up to a notch never quite experienced before by the rural poor.
I personally think Thaksin is an utterly shameless mass-murdering cunt, but that's nothing to do with his vote buying but more to do with the state-sponsored extra-judicial executions which did nothing to reduce the amount of narcotics in the country but simply served to drive up the price of yaba from 30 baht a pill to 300. Ask yourself who was the biggest beneficiary of this program. Keep in mind that Thaksin's home province of Chiang Mai shares a 287 kilometre border with Myanmar, and that Thaksin's hand-picked border guards had the task to interrupt the flow (or otherwise) of ATS into the country. Thaksin, of course, was the head of the police intelligence unit -read spy network- almost until the time he ran for Prime Minister.
And don't get me started on what the prick kicked off in the deep south...
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That's one of the reasons that Drugs are illegal. Not for public safety but to enrich those in "control" of enforcement.
Imagine what the Thais learnt from Air America and the CIA.
Imagine what the Thais learnt from Air America and the CIA.
The Earth is degenerating these days. Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
--Assyrian Stone Tablet, c.2800 BCE
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
--Assyrian Stone Tablet, c.2800 BCE
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Excellent analysis here
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandal ... -violence/
Recall: after the last coup in 2006 the junta had the constitution rewritten, wholly on Yellow Shirt terms and imposed an unelected "Democrat" (oh the irony) government. When elections were held they were swept from power. There is no reason at all to supposed a repeat of the same process won't deliver the same outcome.
This raises the question, 'How can there be a return to democracy'? The only course open is for the military to turn power over to the 'People's Council' that Suthep's fascists crave. The 'bloodless' nature of the coup simply disguises that fact that the coup has left no peaceful options on the pro-government table. Notice as the hours roll how the people being extra-judicially detained and 'invited to think again' (is that Thai national anthem to be 'Flower of Scotland'?) are all pro-government supporters and reporters committed to revealing the truth).
Are 80% of the Thai population willing to suffer a regime that offers all the freedom of North Korea, or violent suppression like in Egypt? I don't think they are, hence the inevitability of a serious outbreak of violence. I suspect Gen Prayuth knows that and is waiting for the inevitable death of the king as an smokescreen and excuse to instigate a very violent clampdown.
Given that a deluge of refugees will swamp Cambodia, whether or not Thakin's alternative government sets up here, Cambodia will be sucked into this. I can see the opportunist Rainsy dragging the CNRP to back the fascist regime given that the CPP are friendly with Thaksin, thus revealing the CNRP's deep anti-democratic roots and exacerbating the political divisions and tensions in this country.
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandal ... -violence/
I note the article is posted in Thailand; the writer could not be based there while offering such much-needed valid criticism of the role of the monarchy.Thailand’s invitation to violence
Recall: after the last coup in 2006 the junta had the constitution rewritten, wholly on Yellow Shirt terms and imposed an unelected "Democrat" (oh the irony) government. When elections were held they were swept from power. There is no reason at all to supposed a repeat of the same process won't deliver the same outcome.
This raises the question, 'How can there be a return to democracy'? The only course open is for the military to turn power over to the 'People's Council' that Suthep's fascists crave. The 'bloodless' nature of the coup simply disguises that fact that the coup has left no peaceful options on the pro-government table. Notice as the hours roll how the people being extra-judicially detained and 'invited to think again' (is that Thai national anthem to be 'Flower of Scotland'?) are all pro-government supporters and reporters committed to revealing the truth).
Are 80% of the Thai population willing to suffer a regime that offers all the freedom of North Korea, or violent suppression like in Egypt? I don't think they are, hence the inevitability of a serious outbreak of violence. I suspect Gen Prayuth knows that and is waiting for the inevitable death of the king as an smokescreen and excuse to instigate a very violent clampdown.
Given that a deluge of refugees will swamp Cambodia, whether or not Thakin's alternative government sets up here, Cambodia will be sucked into this. I can see the opportunist Rainsy dragging the CNRP to back the fascist regime given that the CPP are friendly with Thaksin, thus revealing the CNRP's deep anti-democratic roots and exacerbating the political divisions and tensions in this country.
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Good piece AiA.
The one question I have always wondered is why exactly did HS befriend Thakin? I remember when he was invited to be an advisor to the RGC and even then, the political heads and multilaterals were shrugging their shoulder as to what HE's end game was.
Other than to annoy the hell out of the Thai's, I still don't see why he did it or whether it was was worth the risk.
The one question I have always wondered is why exactly did HS befriend Thakin? I remember when he was invited to be an advisor to the RGC and even then, the political heads and multilaterals were shrugging their shoulder as to what HE's end game was.
Other than to annoy the hell out of the Thai's, I still don't see why he did it or whether it was was worth the risk.
My posts are just jokes, maybe they're rude, offensive, and politically incorrect. They're not my opinion, viewpoint, idea, or judgement, but they're just fucking jokes so lighten up.
- Jacked Camry
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Q1 is indeed the question. When you can't even get people on either side reasonably close to each other in terms of defining the problem, it is a difficult one to solve. Ask the Yellow side and they will tell you that Thaksin was the problem and all will be peace, love and understanding if the Shins leave the scene. But is that true? And is that really how they feel or does Thaksin represent something that they fear even more - the consolidation of the larger population's votes in the persona of a candidate who will run against their entrenched interests and always be able to win an election?BLBoy wrote:Very interesting comments here. I've got 2 questiosn for whoever feels like answering...
My understanding on the present situation is as follows (condensed version, but correct me if i'm not on track):
1. Thaksin/red supporters have enough of the popular vote that they will win each time elections are held - so holding elections will always bring the situation back to square 1 no matter how many times it is repeated.
2. The yellow/blue supporters will not accept a Thaksin/red elected government (without going into reasons ).
Q1. Is there a way out of this impasse ? Elections = Thaksin win = rejection of results by losing party = civil strife = army steps in to clean up - new elections held - and so on. How to get off the treadmill ?
Q2. Do you think that the political turmoil in Thailand at the moment (and previously) is part of a democratic "teething process", or is it the proof that democracy just doesn't work everywhere, including in Thailand ? Are these birth throes or death throes of the democratic process?
The 1997 Constitution was quite a democratic one, and established a number of offices that were intended to provide oversight and balance to the government in the form of the National Counter Corruption Committee, the Constitutional Court, the Election Commission and a number of other bodies such as Auditor-General and Ombudsman. The Senate was an entirely elected body. There were lots of different political parties, each representing groups of regional politicians that were continuously realigning with each other in a melange of different coalitions. This allowed for a fluid political situation where occasionally the Democrats would be able to get into power as well through alignment with different coalition partners on occasion. But it was quite ineffective politically since there was little stability and too many mouths to feed at the government trough. However, as it was a compromise solution and allowed everyone a chance at the government largesse, it was accepted as a reasonable enough solution although it didn't address corruption very well. The problem came when Thaksin in 2001 became the first politician to effectively unite the various disparate parties representing the North and Northeast under a single banner. Suddenly, for the first time in Thai political history, there was a majority government with a single party at the helm, under the control of a single individual.
This was intolerable to the old regime. They realized that they were effectively shut out, and there was no way for them to get back in. In addition, Thaksin showed himself to be both a wily politician who could overcome various efforts to undermine his power through the checks and balances, as well as very corrupt (nothing new there) and intolerant of criticism. Thaksin was a very successful CEO, and operated the exact same way as PM, brooking no criticism, making all the important decisions, putting his people wherever he wanted to do whatever he ordered them to do. And as a result he was able to rapidly implement a number of populist policies that won him even more support among his constituents, who were finally getting the direct benefits of government power for the first time. Thaksin understood that his power stemmed from keeping the people in the rural areas and the coalition politicians (career politicos with long histories of corruption as well) happy. That required a lot of money. In addition, he had his own personal fortune to manage, in the form of his massive telecommunications empire. He therefore used his power to evade taxes on a $2 Billion dollar sale of the company to Singaporean interests connected to their ruling family. Eventually the consequences of his wheelings and dealings fell afoul of the various oversight commissions. This led to the protests by the Yellows and the 2006 coup and the rewrite of the constitution. But he is a hard man to get away from, and he came back in the next election by running through proxy with his sister Yingluck.
The rewrite incorporated some undemocratic aspects - the Senate was changed to one where almost half (74 versus 76) of the Senators were appointed rather than elected, effectively giving the Elite control over that body. There was a lot of struggle over appointment of Senators as you might imagine. So the current situation has come to pass because they basically made a bit of a mess of their attempts to be able to remove Thaksin when they realized that with the rules as they were, they couldn't actually throw the government out of power completely unless they were able to sack ALL of the government ministers and cabinet for corruption or other offenses; hence after Yingluck was removed there remained a few cabinet members and an interim Prime Minister in place. The Senate looked at trying to appoint a new "neutral" PM, but found they lacked the legislative tools within the constitution to do so. Thus, painted into a corner by their own constitution, they resorted to the only option remaining, a military coup, part XII. This is how we find ourselves in the current situation.
What will likely happen next will be a rewrite of the Constitution again, this time to ensure that the Senate can shut down the elected House and PM and install their own PM whenever the commissions find them corrupt or otherwise breaking the law. This is the "reform" process they speak about. Unlike the previous rewrite of the Constitution, this will be supported by the Yellows, who now realize on a popular level that they need some ways to overcome the majority vote. They're more sophisticated in their understanding of Thai politics and how it works. This "reform" will make token efforts to involve the Reds, but will essentially be undertaken by the Elite in order to protect their interests. The Military will cling onto power and make a mess out of it as they always do, because they have no training, expertise or inclination to run a country. Eventually the rewrite will be completed, at which point they'll step down, appoint someone from the Elite (nobody controversial) as interim PM, and there will be an election. The Reds will reconsolidate again, with Thaksin involved again, and will win the election. Then the Yellows will start using their checks and balances to find something - anything - to start progressively removing as many people as they can from their elected positions. When the Reds pass something that they really can't live with, they'll start the protests and we'll be here again.
That's what usually happens anyway. But you asked, what MIGHT happen that would possibly break this cycle. That is the hard part.
First...I have made a point here regarding the monarchy. In retrospect, I think I will keep it out since looking at the various things coming over the internet about what one might or might not be allowed to do at the present time. If someone wants to see what I wrote, please PM me and I will send them the paragraph.
Second, they need to avoid politicization of the check and balance institutions. These have become the new tool of the Yellows to disenfranchise the popular vote, and it is highly damaging since they are seen as overly zealous in regard to chasing down the Reds. Examples of this include kicking Samak Sundaravej out of the PM position for appearing on a cooking show in return for something like 150 baht per day. Seriously? Similarly, the Election Commission issued a bizarre Catch-22 type ruling that the elections were invalid because people had been prevented from voting, while doing their utmost to ensure that voting didn't occur. This essentially gave free reign to anyone who wanted to disrupt an election to do so by preventing people from going to the polls. In addition, they finally got Yingluck removed from power over removal of a relatively minor official from his post, a prerogative of any administration and, if followed as precedent, something that would see a succession of 2 month governments as every single one is removed from power for this reason. So long as these people are seen as, and in this case are, politically tilted one way or another, then they will have no legitimacy and will function only as a tool for political manipulation rather than as a true check and balance system. Perhaps they will need to stock these commissions with equal numbers from each side somehow until they can get enough neutral and respected people that the positions can be regularly and acceptably filled.
Third, they need to open up their bidding and award systems for all government contracts to online scrutiny and take other measures to allow closer examination of contract awards at all levels. They need to emphasize openness and free dialogue within society at all levels. They need to reform their primary and secondary education system away from rote learning and mindless repetition of myths that are discredited by serious historical research. And, most importantly in this regard, they need to get rid of the Lèse-majesté laws. This stifles any serious discussion of important issues and is consistently used to persecute anyone with a different voice, particularly by the Right. It also undercuts support for the monarchy and contributes to its decline in importance, and discussion or actions to diminish the monarchy are not beneficial to unifying Thai society at the moment.
Fourth, the Democrats and other Yellow aligned parties need to broaden their base to re-establish a presence in the North and Northeast and incorporate policies that benefit those people so that they can avoid being marginalized electorally and not have to resort to extra-democratic means to seize power. In combination with this, there needs to be outreach among the middle and upper classes to better interact and understand their compatriots from the boonies. Thai TV is filled with obnoxious soap operas and other shows that continually emphasize the divisions between the Amaart and the ordinary people, with the role of the peasants/servants/farmers not all that different from the feudal society days. The hatred and disdain expressed continually by the Amaart against the Red supporters is reflective of their lack of experience and understanding of life in rural Thailand. At the same time, as with other urban societies, they've lost touch with their roots and have become mindless consumerists, chasing money at all costs in order to buy useless shit they don't need. There seems to be little interest or appetite in taking advantage of their good situation to pursue positive or creative outlets such as art, literature, good works for the poor, etc. This contributes to the sort of soulless societies seen in other megalopolii. And it breeds the kind of casual contempt one saw continuously expressed during the protests.
Fifth, there needs to be an inclusive, long-running and outreach-driven dialogue on the kind of reforms that might improve the political system. But this is unlikely to be the panacea that the Yellows envision. It's just as likely to be co-opted by political machinations as elections are, and as we've seen already, there are few points that both sides agree on so why would that change during a separate reform process? However, a well-supported dialogue that occurs at a lot of levels could educate people on the importance and roles of the checks and balances, the causes and consequences of corruption, the importance of civil society and civil relations between opposing political parties and other issues. It's part of a long-term process of getting people to better understand their systems, their problems and why it would be beneficial for both sides to cooperate for the greater good.
Sixth, there needs to be reform of the military and police. Both are highly politicized, and dispense justice and security that varies according to whom they are dealing with at the time. How one does this is well beyond my ken.
Seventh, there needs to be an election based on competing visions of reform, possibly with different reform options to be voted on at the same time as voting for the politicians. However, there needs to be a commitment by both sides to resolve their differences via elections, and to accept the results when they lose. The Yellow protest against the Amnesty was valid in my opinion and achieved its goal. That's where it should have ended. To insist on removal of the government without possibility of negotiation or even dialogue two-three years after losing an election in a landslide is not reasonable. Perhaps election cycles should be shortened to three years to give people the chance to learn how to tolerate living under opposition.
What do you think?
Q2. Yes, it's part of a teething process in my opinion. Thailand is unlikely to be able to return to a system of absolute monarchy or some other rule by fiat by the Amaart without erupting into civil war. The Yellows deep in their hearts know that they need to be able to have government elected via a voting process, their current obstinence and frustration with the system is because they can't figure out how to win and they're just being immature. How many Yellows have you heard discussing how they should do better in the North and Northeast? They simply dismiss it as a matter of "the rural people are buffalo and their votes are bought" without considering why on earth they might vote for the Yellow candidates who have no local presence and offer them nothing within their electoral platforms. The rural areas have change in many ways over the last 25 years, and they're not so dumb as the Yellows may think. As noted in my other posts, this is Thaksin's real sin at the end of the day, opening up the eyes of the Reds to the innate power they have to control the government which was once Bangkok's exclusive preserve. Both sides are corrupt, and corruption has been a constant facet of Thai politics throughout. To claim that it was somehow over the top during Thaksin's control to a level that was unacceptable is disingenuous.
Last edited by Jacked Camry on Sun May 25, 2014 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Jacked Camry
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First, I would challenge though whether co-opting Tambon Chiefs and tuk-tuk drivers is vote buying - sounds like smart politics to me, and it occurs everywhere including Western democracies. I regard "vote buying" as when there is a transaction whereby people's primary motivation for voting is based on getting paid to do so by a political party, including voting against their own wishes or interests. I don't believe that fits the definition of what I'm talking about.Falcon Randwick wrote:JC, I appreciate your on-the-ground knowledge and experience and I read the various stories of the vote buying on both sides, but what you neglect to mention is the initial election of Thaksin in 2001. At that time vote buying was at its absolute zenith and TRT poured considerably more into this corrupt practice than anyone else. It was calculated, I can't recall where so I can't give sources, that it cost a mere US$50 million for Thaksin to buy his first election, pocket change for him. While I was resident in Mukdahan I personally spoke with people who shared in that largesse.
It should be pointed out, though, that it was not the individual Isarn resident who benefitted the most, but the tambon chiefs to whom the money was distributed who doled out money and put on TRT local events. Much of the money stuck to the inside of their pockets and voters were actually paid as little as 300 baht for their vote. How much one was paid depended greatly on how much influence that particular person wielded in the area. Indeed, tuk tuk and songthaew drivers who adorned their vehicles with TRT banners were given substantially more than the average rice farmer as they interacted on a daily basis with more people.
Prior to his first election push, Thaksin was virtually unheard of outside of his natural constituency in the Lanna country of the far north. It certainly was the firehosing of northeast constituencies in the northeast by floods of Thaksin's own cash which enabled him to become a household name in the first place. Despite your unwillingness to concede on any point in this debate, vote buying by TRT in those days was the most influential aspect of Thaksin earliest poll results. It did take the entrenched elite by surprise and they were in no way prepared, nor affluent enough to compete.
Secondly, the idea that the entrenched Elite didn't have the money to compete is laughable. These are among the richest people in the world. Fact is they were indeed blind-sided.
Thirdly, I'll happily concede points in any debate to those who demonstrate them. I have made my case, and I think your experience and inputs are not contradictory to them, although they add further depth. I would never say that what I described was 100% accurate in all cases as it is complex. However it reflected what I saw when I used to live there, and is supported by what seems to be the only academic research done on the matter (Chris Baker et al). I was not there during the 2001 election, so can't really comment on the levels of vote-buying compared to before. Could well be the case that Thaksin raised it to another level then, it would mirror marketing strategies that companies implement and so would be consistent with his MO. But to continue to infer that this is a factor in the present day and age is absurd to my mind. And one can't go back into time and complain that everything that has occurred since then is therefore illegitimate.
I can live with that, but if Thaksin hadn't made his case, and cleverly co-opted the people who were already well established in the Northeast, then they wouldn't have voted for him even with his money. He saw an under-served market and capitalized on it. Absolutely with you on the second part about the financial patronage.Falcon Randwick wrote:So don't discount vote buying as a factor. It was the subsequent policies which Thaksin put into place, particularly the (almost) free healthcare system -of which - myself have been a beneficiary, as a government employee I was covered by the scheme- as well as other locally-based economic activities which cemented his base, but that all came later once he'd bought his way into power. The Thais are sanguine, for the most part, about this type of financial patronage which had been going on since forever, Thaksin simply ratcheted it up to a notch never quite experienced before by the rural poor.
Completely agree on that.Falcon Randwick wrote:I personally think Thaksin is an utterly shameless mass-murdering cunt, but that's nothing to do with his vote buying but more to do with the state-sponsored extra-judicial executions which did nothing to reduce the amount of narcotics in the country but simply served to drive up the price of yaba from 30 baht a pill to 300. Ask yourself who was the biggest beneficiary of this program. Keep in mind that Thaksin's home province of Chiang Mai shares a 287 kilometre border with Myanmar, and that Thaksin's hand-picked border guards had the task to interrupt the flow (or otherwise) of ATS into the country. Thaksin, of course, was the head of the police intelligence unit -read spy network- almost until the time he ran for Prime Minister.
And don't get me started on what the prick kicked off in the deep south...
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the king has spoken;
His Majesty the King endorsed Gen Prayut, the coup leader as the head of NCPO. The ceremony will be held tomorrow at Army HQ at 10am and than an interim prime minister, an appointed assembly and a reform council will be established
Let the games begin.
His Majesty the King endorsed Gen Prayut, the coup leader as the head of NCPO. The ceremony will be held tomorrow at Army HQ at 10am and than an interim prime minister, an appointed assembly and a reform council will be established
Let the games begin.
- spitthedog
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I'm just a working class boy at heart so i hope things do progress for the people out in the provinces. Just cynical about the alternative and wonder which of the options is the least evil/controlling and dont like to see the people i can most relate too being duped.
Maybe the reds that flock to Bangkok are smarter than that and know they are just being used but its better than what they have had until now. Dunno. Just seems to me that the last few years have all been about leading up to trying to change laws and starting riots if needed. (seems like the military obviously thought that the latter was being organized)
But then again i find the mindset of the working class Thai people abit schizophrenic with regards to politics. On the one hand they seem to worship elitism, money and lavish spending and turn a blind eye to tax evasion, bribes etc and on the other they protest for better pay and more equal rights etc.
This Thai historian thinks that thai style history education ''makes Thais ignorant and narcissistic'' about the world around them. I've also heard that the history that they teach in schools is shocking.
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3649
I guess the one good thing about the Red's is that they are rocking the boat and making people think that there is an alternative.
Maybe the reds that flock to Bangkok are smarter than that and know they are just being used but its better than what they have had until now. Dunno. Just seems to me that the last few years have all been about leading up to trying to change laws and starting riots if needed. (seems like the military obviously thought that the latter was being organized)
But then again i find the mindset of the working class Thai people abit schizophrenic with regards to politics. On the one hand they seem to worship elitism, money and lavish spending and turn a blind eye to tax evasion, bribes etc and on the other they protest for better pay and more equal rights etc.
This Thai historian thinks that thai style history education ''makes Thais ignorant and narcissistic'' about the world around them. I've also heard that the history that they teach in schools is shocking.
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3649
I guess the one good thing about the Red's is that they are rocking the boat and making people think that there is an alternative.
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
- Lucky Lucan
- K440 Knight Captain
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Interesting lecture. Thailand may have been one of the more successful countries in the region but they're in a real mess now, and obviously their people don't realize how insignificant their country really is on the world stage.spitthedog wrote: This Thai historian thinks that thai style history education ''makes Thais ignorant and narcissistic'' about the world around them. I've also heard that the history that they teach in schools is shocking.
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3649
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
- Jacked Camry
- Is the World Outside still there ?
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Thongchai Winichakul wrote a fantastic book that I would recommend to anyone interested in the history of the region, called "Siam Mapped: a history of the geobody of a nation". I haven't listened to his lecture, but would not be surprised to hear that it is similarly incisive, original and germane.spitthedog wrote:I'm just a working class boy at heart so i hope things do progress for the people out in the provinces. Just cynical about the alternative and wonder which of the options is the least evil/controlling and dont like to see the people i can most relate too being duped.
Maybe the reds that flock to Bangkok are smarter than that and know they are just being used but its better than what they have had until now. Dunno. Just seems to me that the last few years have all been about leading up to trying to change laws and starting riots if needed. (seems like the military obviously thought that the latter was being organized)
But then again i find the mindset of the working class Thai people abit schizophrenic with regards to politics. On the one hand they seem to worship elitism, money and lavish spending and turn a blind eye to tax evasion, bribes etc and on the other they protest for better pay and more equal rights etc.
This Thai historian thinks that thai style history education ''makes Thais ignorant and narcissistic'' about the world around them. I've also heard that the history that they teach in schools is shocking.
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3649
I guess the one good thing about the Red's is that they are rocking the boat and making people think that there is an alternative.
What I keep saying to you is that the Reds are voting in their best interest, not because they're being manipulated. The populist policies of Thaksin are putting money in their pockets directly from the government, just as similar policies (although much more limited in their scope and size) rewarded Yellow constituents for their votes back when the Democrats were in power. It's called "politics", there's nothing particularly unique about this brand of it. In the view of the Reds, all politicians are slimy and corrupt, so they're just happy that they've got THEIR politicians in power where they can be the ones getting the benefits for once. It is hard to fault this view. The Yellows, as a constituency, are much better off being urban or from a region where the economy is better so are less dependent on government cheese as a proportion of their income. Hence they're less interested in those aspects of politics. However, times change, and you can bet the next government will be hearing a lot of whinging about rubber prices and why there needs to be a massive subsidy for that. That will probably be the next bit the Army does to shore up their support to extend their stay in power, or whichever "neutral" government is installed since either will be sympathetic to the South.
I don't get your point about riots still. The Yellow side start protests against the Reds when the Reds are in power and vice-versa.
As to worship of the Elite and money this is cultural and goes WAAAAAY back.
- xtreme
- I have some social problems
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Mainstream news….
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... up-bangkok
Thai junta dissolves senate as army tightens grip
Military orders activists and journalists to hand themselves in as troops deployed across Bangkok to quell anti-coup protests
Link to video: Thailand coup: Tensions rise after scuffles between protesters and soldiers
Thailand's military junta has dissolved the country's last remaining democratic institution – the senate – and ordered dozens of activists and journalists to turn themselves in to the army as protests grow against Thursday's coup.
The governing National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) announced in a televised statement late on Saturday that it had dissolved the senate and would be assuming control of all lawmaking powers, a few hours after it summoned 35 prominent academics and activists to report to army headquarters. That was in addition to some 155 leading politicians and leaders it had already called in for questioning.
The council has also sacked the police chief and head of the department of special investigations, Thailand's FBI, and on Sunday afternoon it called in the editors of 18 major Thai newspapers. They included Khaosod, the Bangkok Post, ASTV, Matichon and Thairath, according to the online news portal Prachatai. It was not clear if the editors would be allowed to leave or detained in unknown locations like those arrested earlier.
In a separate summons, the outspoken columnist Pravit Rojanaphruk, who writes for English-language paper the Nation, was asked to meet independently with the junta and said on Sunday morning he was en route to army headquarters. "On my way to see the new dictator of Thailand. Hopefully the last," he tweeted. He did not appear to have been released by Sunday afternoon.
Yingluck Shinawatra. Photograph: Narong Sangnak/EPA
More than 100 people, among them the former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who was apprehended on Saturday, remain in military detention in secret locations in what has been seen as a move to suppress dissent and potential opposition to the military takeover.
"What is scary now is that the army appears to be the most united institution in Thai society," said Dr Paul Chambers of the institute of south-east Asian affairs, which is affiliated to Chiang Mai University.
Thailand's army seized power in what it said was an effort to restore peace and order after six months of political infighting left 28 people dead and more than 700 injured. But the coup leaders are also facing trouble in southern Thailand, where at least 10 bombs exploded on Saturday, reportedly killing three people and wounding 63. An Islamic insurgency has been under way in the south for a decade.
Troops were deployed across central Bangkok on Sunday, concentrated around the shopping malls of Rajprasong, to dispel a growing crowd of protesters defying a public ban on gatherings of five or more people. The crowd shouted at the soldiers, held up banners reading "anti coup" and called for elections and a return to democratic rule.
Soldiers stand guard in Bangkok after dispersing anti-coup protesters on Sunday. Photograph: Christophe Archambault/AFP/Getty Images
About 1,000 people gathered for a similar protest on Saturday in Bangkok, where some were reportedly arrested, while others protested against the coup in the northern city of Chiang Mai, a political stronghold for the now-deposed Pheu Thai party. Demonstrations also took place at the beach resort of Pattaya and at Khon Kaen in the north-east.
The army chief and head of the junta, General Prayuth Chan-ocha, now serving as acting prime minister, warned people against joining the protests: "Democratic principles cannot be executed normally," he said.
On Thursday, Prayuth dissolved the lower house of parliament and suspended the constitution, one that he had previously helped draw up in 2006 when he was part of the last military coup that deposed Thaksin Shinawatra as prime minister. Emptying out both the house and senate means the junta will bypass the need for parliamentary approval of new laws.
Many of those told to report to the junta appear to been outwardly critical of Thailand's lese-majeste law, known as Article 112, which calls for up to 15 years' imprisonment for defamatory, insulting or threatening comments about the royal family. Critics claim it stifles public debate and helps to maintain the status quo.
Recent attempts to reform the law have been met with fervent resistance by royalists, among them Prayuth, who according to the Associated Press told critics: "If you guys play hardball I'll have no choice but to do so too."
After initially blocking all Thai and foreign television channels from broadcasting, the junta has allowed some to go back on the air. But it appears that many international channels – among them CNN and BBC – are still blocked. About 14 Thai TV channels and radio stations were still banned, the Bangkok Post reported.
Chambers said the speed at which the junta was instituting change was "very worrisome" and that the immediate future for Thailand looked bleak. "I see more jailings. I see the enshrinement of more army power. I see the beginning of civil war after Thaksin announces a government in exile," he said.
A number of nations and human rights organisations have expressed their grave concern over the military's recent actions. The US, a major trading partner, has suspended $3.5m (£2m) in military aid.
"We are increasingly concerned about actions the military has taken, just a few days after it staged a coup … We again call on the military to release those detained for political reasons, end restrictions on the media and move to restore civilian rule and democracy through elections," a state department spokeswoman said on Saturday.
Thai police commandos stand guard outside the Army Club in Bangkok on 23 May. Photograph: Sakchai Lalit/AP
The Asian Human Rights Commission said the military's use of the media to issue the summons could be seen as a form of terror, and said that those in detention in were in danger of being subjected to grave human rights abuses.
"While the junta has made reassurances that those who report themselves will not be mistreated, within the context of martial law … this reassurance carries no weight," it said in a statement.
"Citizens are subject to up to seven days of detention without the authorities having to provide evidence of wrongdoing or bring formal charges … mean[ing] that the possibility for rights violations, including torture, forced disappearance or extrajudicial execution is greatly increased."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... up-bangkok
Thai junta dissolves senate as army tightens grip
Military orders activists and journalists to hand themselves in as troops deployed across Bangkok to quell anti-coup protests
Link to video: Thailand coup: Tensions rise after scuffles between protesters and soldiers
Thailand's military junta has dissolved the country's last remaining democratic institution – the senate – and ordered dozens of activists and journalists to turn themselves in to the army as protests grow against Thursday's coup.
The governing National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) announced in a televised statement late on Saturday that it had dissolved the senate and would be assuming control of all lawmaking powers, a few hours after it summoned 35 prominent academics and activists to report to army headquarters. That was in addition to some 155 leading politicians and leaders it had already called in for questioning.
The council has also sacked the police chief and head of the department of special investigations, Thailand's FBI, and on Sunday afternoon it called in the editors of 18 major Thai newspapers. They included Khaosod, the Bangkok Post, ASTV, Matichon and Thairath, according to the online news portal Prachatai. It was not clear if the editors would be allowed to leave or detained in unknown locations like those arrested earlier.
In a separate summons, the outspoken columnist Pravit Rojanaphruk, who writes for English-language paper the Nation, was asked to meet independently with the junta and said on Sunday morning he was en route to army headquarters. "On my way to see the new dictator of Thailand. Hopefully the last," he tweeted. He did not appear to have been released by Sunday afternoon.
Yingluck Shinawatra. Photograph: Narong Sangnak/EPA
More than 100 people, among them the former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who was apprehended on Saturday, remain in military detention in secret locations in what has been seen as a move to suppress dissent and potential opposition to the military takeover.
"What is scary now is that the army appears to be the most united institution in Thai society," said Dr Paul Chambers of the institute of south-east Asian affairs, which is affiliated to Chiang Mai University.
Thailand's army seized power in what it said was an effort to restore peace and order after six months of political infighting left 28 people dead and more than 700 injured. But the coup leaders are also facing trouble in southern Thailand, where at least 10 bombs exploded on Saturday, reportedly killing three people and wounding 63. An Islamic insurgency has been under way in the south for a decade.
Troops were deployed across central Bangkok on Sunday, concentrated around the shopping malls of Rajprasong, to dispel a growing crowd of protesters defying a public ban on gatherings of five or more people. The crowd shouted at the soldiers, held up banners reading "anti coup" and called for elections and a return to democratic rule.
Soldiers stand guard in Bangkok after dispersing anti-coup protesters on Sunday. Photograph: Christophe Archambault/AFP/Getty Images
About 1,000 people gathered for a similar protest on Saturday in Bangkok, where some were reportedly arrested, while others protested against the coup in the northern city of Chiang Mai, a political stronghold for the now-deposed Pheu Thai party. Demonstrations also took place at the beach resort of Pattaya and at Khon Kaen in the north-east.
The army chief and head of the junta, General Prayuth Chan-ocha, now serving as acting prime minister, warned people against joining the protests: "Democratic principles cannot be executed normally," he said.
On Thursday, Prayuth dissolved the lower house of parliament and suspended the constitution, one that he had previously helped draw up in 2006 when he was part of the last military coup that deposed Thaksin Shinawatra as prime minister. Emptying out both the house and senate means the junta will bypass the need for parliamentary approval of new laws.
Many of those told to report to the junta appear to been outwardly critical of Thailand's lese-majeste law, known as Article 112, which calls for up to 15 years' imprisonment for defamatory, insulting or threatening comments about the royal family. Critics claim it stifles public debate and helps to maintain the status quo.
Recent attempts to reform the law have been met with fervent resistance by royalists, among them Prayuth, who according to the Associated Press told critics: "If you guys play hardball I'll have no choice but to do so too."
After initially blocking all Thai and foreign television channels from broadcasting, the junta has allowed some to go back on the air. But it appears that many international channels – among them CNN and BBC – are still blocked. About 14 Thai TV channels and radio stations were still banned, the Bangkok Post reported.
Chambers said the speed at which the junta was instituting change was "very worrisome" and that the immediate future for Thailand looked bleak. "I see more jailings. I see the enshrinement of more army power. I see the beginning of civil war after Thaksin announces a government in exile," he said.
A number of nations and human rights organisations have expressed their grave concern over the military's recent actions. The US, a major trading partner, has suspended $3.5m (£2m) in military aid.
"We are increasingly concerned about actions the military has taken, just a few days after it staged a coup … We again call on the military to release those detained for political reasons, end restrictions on the media and move to restore civilian rule and democracy through elections," a state department spokeswoman said on Saturday.
Thai police commandos stand guard outside the Army Club in Bangkok on 23 May. Photograph: Sakchai Lalit/AP
The Asian Human Rights Commission said the military's use of the media to issue the summons could be seen as a form of terror, and said that those in detention in were in danger of being subjected to grave human rights abuses.
"While the junta has made reassurances that those who report themselves will not be mistreated, within the context of martial law … this reassurance carries no weight," it said in a statement.
"Citizens are subject to up to seven days of detention without the authorities having to provide evidence of wrongdoing or bring formal charges … mean[ing] that the possibility for rights violations, including torture, forced disappearance or extrajudicial execution is greatly increased."
- Falcon Randwick
- Damn, I just saw my Internet Bill !
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- Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:55 pm
I didn't say the elite didn't have the money, but that they were taken completely by surprise. Thaksin had been working on his network for years through his position as police spy master, but when he bounced his political party into the daylight it was a particularly sudden political coup. A master stroke, in many ways. I do have a grudging admiration for Thaksin because, as you say JC, he was the first to unite the north and northeast. Pity he's such a ruthless cunt.Jacked Camry wrote:Secondly, the idea that the entrenched Elite didn't have the money to compete is laughable. These are among the richest people in the world. Fact is they were indeed blind-sided.
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