My favorite American dead

[ken svay]

Life experience is what shapes people isn't it?
For instance Vidal was a gay man on the US navy who served on the Aleutians.His first book was based on that experience and his only true love was killed at Iwo Jima.
That tiny bit of history involved two world wars,the loss of the british empire,the rise of the US,the communist empire,remarkable leaps in technology including space travel,emancipation of women and the sexual revolution.
Yawn.

[Bradshaw]

Vidal was on BBC's "Hardtalk" in 2008 and they've just replayed the 1/2 hour interview. He had interesting views on America.

WW2 was epic but I think the dudes who fought in the Napolionic wars would have much better stories. Their uniforms were also much smarter.

Anyway I agree with you Ken the future is gonna be shit and nothing will happen. Absolutley nothing. In fact I think everyone is gonna stop what they're doing and just curl up and die because vidals boyfriend got killed by the japs and someone walked on the moon. There is nothing left to do.

[jm]

Quite another take:

http://mobile.slate.com/articles/arts/h ... tist_.html

[ken svay]

It doesn't change my views on Vidal, most people I know are not racist but despise Israel.
I have read the Lindbergh bio and Roosevelt was responsible for for pearl harbour as were the Australians.
US boycotts on fuel and Australian boycotts on iron ore tipped the japanese over the edge.
And I am all for containing china,they are dangerous.Who would want to be a satellite like Cambodia?
The US may well base a carrier group in Perth and build a new airfield for fighters.
Despite our reliance on china,most Australians say go for it.

[cambod]

... Vidal was a gay man on the US navy...

...
I loved the man for nearly forty years,...

I'm starting to see a bigger picture now...

[KL&fool]

And I fail to see how

"In the demonology of Vidal and his not-so-progressive Progressive forbears, Jews in particular loomed large. Vidal’s anti-Semitic rants frequently insinuated that Jews were un-American, more loyal to Israel than the United States. The most notorious of these pieces, “The Empire Lovers Strike Back,” ran in the The Nation on March 22, 1986, and achieved what many would have thought impossible: arousing sympathy for Norman Podhoretz and Midge Decter. It was the kind of piece that should give pause to those who ritually deny that anti-Zionism is rooted in anti-Semitism; it should be read in full. Describing the Podhoretzs as propagandists for Israel (“in its never-ending wars against just about everyone … a predatory people”), he cast Podhoretz, who was born in the United States, as someone who would never become “an ‘assimilated American,’ to use the old-fashioned terminology.” Addressing Decter, he declared, “I’ve got to tell you I don’t much like your country, which is Israel.”

...automatically leads to a condemnation of him as being 'anti-semitic'. I see him more as a predecessor of Johnny Rotten. You speak freely about what what you perceive and some people just can't take any kind of criticism and take it personally. The truth so often hurts.

Sorry, but all races and all nationalities should learn to take some critical comments without leaping to call the 'racist' card. Many Jewish comedians/comediennes such as the aforementioned Woody, Joan Rivers and Mike & Bernie Winters (in the Uk) take and make jokes about themselves. If only more members of the tribe would learn to have a laugh without getting all upset about a few comments/perceptions.

The same nonsense as refusing to accept Wagner as a great composer just because of some of his twisted views. (That I will concede.) His music transcends his personal views.

[Gary Gilmour's Eyes]

The analogy with Johny Rotten is very valid. Both were total cynics and nothing was sacrosanct. Vidal made some scathing attacks on gay rights groups, even though he was gay himself. His relatives the Kennedys weren't spared either. I agree that the Jewish rant sounds more anti-Zionist than anti-Semitic, but with Vidal it doesn't matter.
I don't agree with many of his views, but that doesn't prevent me from admiring his sarcastic wit and his provocative perspective on life.

[jm]

And I fail to see how

"In the demonology of Vidal and his not-so-progressive Progressive forbears, Jews in particular loomed large. Vidal’s anti-Semitic rants frequently insinuated that Jews were un-American, more loyal to Israel than the United States. The most notorious of these pieces, “The Empire Lovers Strike Back,” ran in the The Nation on March 22, 1986, and achieved what many would have thought impossible: arousing sympathy for Norman Podhoretz and Midge Decter. It was the kind of piece that should give pause to those who ritually deny that anti-Zionism is rooted in anti-Semitism; it should be read in full. Describing the Podhoretzs as propagandists for Israel (“in its never-ending wars against just about everyone … a predatory people”), he cast Podhoretz, who was born in the United States, as someone who would never become “an ‘assimilated American,’ to use the old-fashioned terminology.” Addressing Decter, he declared, “I’ve got to tell you I don’t much like your country, which is Israel.”

...automatically leads to a condemnation of him as being 'anti-semitic'. I see him more as a predecessor of Johnny Rotten. You speak freely about what what you perceive and some people just can't take any kind of criticism and take it personally. The truth so often hurts.

Sorry, but all races and all nationalities should learn to take some critical comments without leaping to call the 'racist' card. Many Jewish comedians/comediennes such as the aforementioned Woody, Joan Rivers and Mike & Bernie Winters (in the Uk) take and make jokes about themselves. If only more members of the tribe would learn to have a laugh without getting all upset about a few comments/perceptions.

The same nonsense as refusing to accept Wagner as a great composer just because of some of his twisted views. (That I will concede.) His music transcends his personal views.

American Jews on balance care more about social justice than Israel and a healthy minority - which includes everyone I know -- now as always identify little with the Jewish state even if its fate is an important concern.

http://publicreligion.org/research/2012 ... s-in-2012/

Your Wagner comment suggests a bit of confusion between the twisted politics of the state of Israel and Jewish opinion. Myself I missed the Wagner memo.

As for Vidal, I haven't yet read the referenced article which I would before judging it to be anti-Semitic vs anti-Zionist. Being of the latter persuasion I do understand the difference.

None of which has any bearing on Vidal's worth as a writer by the way, I agree.

[KL&fool]

Just to clarify my point, Wagner invariably gets linked with the terrible events of the Holocaust and some of his outbursts do reveal an anti-semitic streak. As a result, any attempts to play Wagner's music in a Jewish community are met with derision from some:

In July 2001, the prestigious Berlin Staatskapelle performed the "Tristan und Isolde" overture at the Israel Festival. While the orchestra's condutor, Daniel Barenboim (himself a Jew), had promised to respect the ban on Wagner's music, he surprised his audience by asking them if they wanted to hear Wagner as an encore following the scheduled performance. Most of the audience was in favor of the encore, which received a standing ovation from all but a few of the listeners. However, during a half-hour debate that preceded the performance of the overture, numerous Israelis protested and walked out of the theater, some shouting insults as they went

There is an excellent, balanced view on the Wagner controversy here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... agner.html

Back on topic, I felt that it was a bit strong in your article, jm, that Vidal was labelled anti-semitic. But, as you say, it's always good to consider different angles.

[jm]

I posted the article because I thought it an interesting perspective not because I agreed with it. I haven't been able to find the Empire Lovers Strike Back Article on line to comment on it.

[Lucky Lucan]

Just want to say thanks Ken bacause now I've realised that there is nothing good to come and nothing to look forward too because all the great achievments and all the best stuff has already been done and my granchildrens grandchildrens work will be laughed at when compared to the work of the guys who lived through the depression and aimed their rifles at nazis because they were the best and the humans of the future have no chance whatsoever of getting anywhere near the standard set by that unique generation.

Tidy.

Absolutely. I don't even realize what a shallow, empty existence my life has been without ever having read any of these Gore Vital essays. If only I had been born back in the olden days, now there is nothing.

[ken svay]

If you haven't read gore Vidal then you have indeed missed out.
He was great,cutting and savage.
And I loved his sense of history,most here are too young to understand.
As they say,youth is wasted on the young.