I appreciate your question and I think it's a good way for people, including yourself, to understand what we (as Jews) are thinking when we examine various posts and why we sometimes react in the way we do in regard to Anti-Semitism. I also appreciate that it's being considerate of you to try to establish boundaries of what is or is not offensive to different people.Rain Dog wrote:In the meantime. I have previously indicated my views on Nazi/Israel comparisons. I would like to know whether you feel my views -- as specially stated below are:
A) Inaccurate
B) Personally Offensive
C) Should be censored
D) Constitute Hate speech
This will set the foundation for any future discussion on this aspect of the discussion.
Vlad and others can speak for themselves but I have never equated Israel's murderous oppression of the Palestinians to the Holocaust. The Nazi's Mass murdered millions within a few years. Israel has murdered maybe hundreds of thousands over 60 years. I consider Israeli atrocities to be somewhat worse than Apartheid South Africa but well short of what the Nazis did. On an Atrocity scale, if Apartheid South Africa was a 5 and the Holocaust a 10, I would say Israel's treatment of Palestinians rates about a 6.5. I hope this clarifies my views.
I have said, and will continue to say so , that Israeli Propaganda (as well as Pro-Israel propaganda in the USA and Europe against Muslims and Arabs) is remarkably similar to Antisemitic propaganda used in Germany in the 1930s. The "Ghettoization" of Palestinians also brings some unpleasant associations to mind, as does Israel's total disregard towards civilian casualties. To my mind the current political landscape today in Israel reminds me more of 1930s Germany than the 1942-1945 Holocaust period. This is an ominous sign."
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First, an important point. When anyone decides to use Nazi parallels in whatever context, we're basically saying "this is the worst". It shouldn't be used indiscriminately, otherwise it loses its value as a comparative in terms of our understanding the scope and scale of something else. It's something that is far beyond anything that's happening anywhere else in the world. It's consistent with the methods, scope and intent of the Nazi Fascist State and their systematic dehumanization, demonization, deportation and genocide of the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and others. I listed the various measures that were taken against the Jews who lived in Germany in the 1930's. When you observe things like that happening, then there is cause for concern.
Second, it's easy to throw around terms that are extreme, such as "murder", when, similarly, it needs to be used appropriately for it to have any real meaning. Yes, the Nazis murdered 6,000,000 Jews - they had a deliberate and systematic program to do so and murdered anyone who met the criteria of being Jewish including children. No, the Khmer Rouge didn't murder 1,200,000 for example. They "only" murdered 250,000 or so (I'm guestimating numbers, you get my point), while the rest died from malnutrition, exhaustion, disease, lack of medication, etc. Did the US "murder" the 100,000 or so Iraqis who died as a result of the "collateral damage" over there? These distinctions are important and over-exaggeration and repeating examples of extreme behaviour from one side or another is not productive and only raises the emotional levels within the discussions without contributing to any overall understanding.
Regarding propaganda, you are far more aware of what is going on in that regard than I am. I've only seen the worst examples like the idiot pastor in Florida or the silly movie some Christian Indian guy in California made. So, again, I would say "let's examine what sort of things were happening with respect to propaganda against the Jews in Germany in the 1930's" so we can see whether there are parallels.
1. Goebbels took over the Propaganda Ministry in Germany and immediately seized complete control of all forms of mass communication. He purged all Jews, Socialists and Liberals from any agency dealing with books, film, theatre, radio, and visual arts. He focused all efforts strictly towards the promotion of the Nazi Party, the goals of Aryan racial purity and superiority and to scapegoat, demonize and dehumanize Jews. Everything published had to be reviewed and approved by the Propaganda Ministry. There were no alternative viewpoints allowed, and anyone attempting to publish such would be arrested and sent to concentration camps. They distributed cheap radios throughout the country and disseminated a single unified campaign through these radios and loudspeakers set up in towns throughout Germany to ensure nobody could escape Hitler's speeches and other announcements.
2. Goebbels was instrumental in inciting and arranging for Kristallnacht, the first major nationwide anti-Jewish pogrom. The Propaganda Ministry seized on the assassination of a German Diplomat by a Jew protesting against his family's deportation to stir up the population, then arranged for the gangs to be in place and police to not be such that the riot achieved its goal of destroying Jewish synagogues and businesses while terrorizing the population. Around 30,000 Jews were rounded up and sent to Concentration Camps at this time (1938).
3. The Propaganda Ministry produced a huge volume of crude Anti-Semitic posters, brochures, radio programs and films. The most notorious film, "The Eternal Jew", depicted Jews as rats, traveling in packs like a plague infecting the purer places with their depravity and degeneration and aimed to build up hatred within the German people such that they would wish to do violence to the Jews so the government could avoid the crudeness of state-sponsored violence like Kristallnacht and the international approbation they received as a result. It's quite easy to find examples of the kinds of crude materials the Nazis were producing. They were even producing children's books to teach basic Anti-Semitism and hatred to kids.
I'll just post a few examples below:
This as an example of the sort of thing the villagers would have seen in 1933, check out this typical poster announcing the Jewish Boycott for a local village. The posters specifically identify who the Jews in the local area are and what their businesses are so that they can be boycotted, something that is not optional, it's necessary otherwise you're an enemy of the state.
http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/posters/boycott.jpg
Not only were children's books printed, an entrepreneur even made a board game called "Juden Raus!", or "Jews: Get Out!".
http://dangerousminds.net/comments/jude ... t_the_jews
So that's what we're looking at when we compare things to Nazi propaganda, as opposed to other propaganda:
1. It's completely controlled by the state who has a ministry specifically charged with this mission that produces its own films, books, leaflets, posters, and oversees anyone who is outside of the government in any cultural field such that approval is needed for anything to be published or performed. Anyone who violates the explicit instructions to portray the target party in a certain way, or who provides information contrary to the state or showing the campaign in a bad light is arrested, beaten, deported or disappeared. No alternative views are provided to the population and there are no democratic counterbalances to the complete autocratic control of the fascist state.
2. It's directed in such a way as to build up hatred for the target group such that the general population is mobilized to violence specifically against that group, and any violence is ensured to not receive any sanction or prevention from security forces.
3. It uses crude stereotypes and aims to portray the target group as sub-human, not worthy of rights or protections.
4. It is done in a climate where basic rights of the target group are being removed while the group are being coerced to leave through violence, threats, removal of rights and livelihoods, etc.
So I would ask you whether the propaganda being disseminated by Israel and the Israeli Right at the moment truly resembles that of Nazi Germany in the 30's. Even if there are trace elements of a few of these characteristics, do we not see far more similarities in the propaganda disseminated through Faux News than those of Goebbel's and his minions? Surely we do. So why not compare this to Fox News rather than Nazi Germany? It's far more accurate and compelling, especially as Fox is the most enthusiastic American outlet for the propaganda being produced. It's a massive stretch to say that Israel's propaganda arm and its associated private sector components are like that of Nazi Germany. Hence the comparison is meaningless and cheapens the use of the example of Nazi Germany. Many here disagree with Fox News, myself included. But I've not heard them compared to Goebbels and Nazi Germany though.