Yes, I see your point, but I think it has been proved that they could have continued on for at least another 10 years of excellent profit. Thatcher-ism won out because the miners were a thorn in its side. She was a very single minded woman and after the miners the rest fell quite quickly. They were a testing point.metaleap wrote:Perspective is a powerful thing! Well, so "they shut the industry down" which is surely the most "unprofitable" solution for all. Unless the mines and miners really weren't necessary anymore at the costs they incurred and insisted on?SCC wrote:One of the things that polarized the nations of the UK were the miners. They were requesting a fair wage for extremely dangerous work. Not dangerous in the fact that they would lose their investments, but dangerous in the fact that they were losing their lives.
Capitalism under Thatcher's answer was to attack the miners with masked thugs and break up the unions and shut the industry down.
Food for thought!
Heartless Generation the new business imperative
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
scobienz wrote:MoodyMac wrote:
I also don't believe that those of the very poorest in western societies can afford things like holidays, and unimaginable choices of food. Although the food bank I worked at in Aranui did have a pretty good selection of canned goods.
Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to stop them from affording $20 packets of cigarettes and lottery tickets.
And lest we forget, economic advances (generated by capitalism) generates the tax revenue for countries to be able to afford to finance (or over finance) a relatively generous welfare state in most western countries. In the UK, for example, the current government has had to introduce rules which limit welfare benefits to $26000 a year, roughly the average household income.
In that respect at least, capitalism has failed. It has inadvertently created a scenario where it no longer pays to many people to work.
Perhaps, but both cigarette smoking (most have been on roll ups for many years )and wishing for a quick way out of your financial hell are very common aspects of any capitalist country.Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to stop them from affording $20 packets of cigarettes and lottery tickets.
Now you getting some interesting points in. AFAIK, it was Aristotle in his Politics who declared first that a system of 'dole' money would be of benefit in that it would help keep society more stable. Think all those men coming home from the war who still had guns. He also said that he thought a larger middle class should be built up as a buffer zone between the very wealthy and the very poor. Cue Thatechers selling off the public companies and handing out shares . Suddenly everyone felt middle class I'm certainly not saying she wasn't smart, just evil.And lest we forget, economic advances (generated by capitalism) generates the tax revenue for countries to be able to afford to finance (or over finance) a relatively generous welfare state in most western countries. In the UK, for example, the current government has had to introduce rules which limit welfare benefits to $26000 a year, roughly the average household income.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
Attitudes on a few other issues also showed a split, albeit not quite so stark: 24% of 18- 24-year-olds disagreed that it's important to get to know your neighbours, versus just 11% of over-65s. Younger people were also more likely to disagree that they were proud to be British, although an overwhelming majority at all age groups express patriotism.
Not everything points towards the young rejecting Britain's traditional social democratic settlement. Young people were at least as likely as their older counterparts to oppose richer people opting out of the NHS (though a majority of respondents at all ages thought this was fine), and did support redistribution of wealth from the richer to poorer – though (as we will see later) perhaps not quite as strongly as their parents did at their age.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
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- 20,000 Posts; I need professional help !
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After name-checking economist Thomas Piketty earlier, he;s just gone up in my estimation in this breaking news
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30650097
Principled economist
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30650097
Principled economist
I came, I argued, I'm out
SCC wrote:
To me it shows an inherent respect for your fellow human beings
I assume this inherent respect also applies to Cambodia and that you want them to be paid the same as people in the UK or US or wherever it is you come from.
And I assume you won't complain too much when the prices rise to western standards and that you will no longer be able to afford to live here.
More great points. People in Cambodia should indeed be paid more fairly across the board. What we don't need IMO is an introduction of prices from an alien economy surging prices for everyone in Cambodia. It all has a knock on effect.scobienz wrote:SCC wrote:
To me it shows an inherent respect for your fellow human beings
I assume this inherent respect also applies to Cambodia and that you want them to be paid the same as people in the UK or US or wherever it is you come from.
And I assume you won't complain too much when the prices rise to western standards and that you will no longer be able to afford to live here.
Rather than that effect being the spread of wealth from the top down it has more effect in local prices shifting upwards and making nearly everyone poorer. First the UN introduced the dollar economy and everything was doubled. Then Cambodia needed investment desperately so they allowed foreigners to do business here, again prices were hiked and continue to be so. In most places on Otres beach, a cheese sandwich goes for 5 or more dollars. Meanwhile people in Otres village are earning 4 or 5$ per day. that means that the equivalent in England would be 6 pounds min wage per hour x 8 = 48 pounds or $78. $78 bucks for a cheese sandwich. Sound expensive to you?
Added to that, along with the bit of extra wealth that is seen in the provinces, goes all the arguing and jealously around it.
NOT adding to a caring sharing society.
Cambodia would be better off with a slow, steady 2 % growth where everything happens a lot slower and therefore is able to be dealt with better. Always getting wealthier but with more focus on equality in the local economy.
The prices have already risen so I can no longer afford to live here working as a teacher.Well almost. Not because of the real prices of things, but because of the price hikes introduced through the knock on effect of foreigners in the tourist industry trying to get western prices in an LDC among other things.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
Slow day on k440 and nothing else I'm really into tonight.. so why not feed back a little more into this newest of countless SCC-echo-chamber "threads".. for da lulz.
Always with your caring sharing society. Who is to care for whom, who is to share how much with whom? Bearing in mind in your more specific detailed reply that in the real world, 21st century all capital is globally movable almost at a mouse-click, and any country in full economic isolation may not last very long in a healthy state of affairs before widespread discontent, impoverishment, malnutrition or whatever begin to set hold. (Dare I say Cambodia 1975-1993? Among numerous other examples?) Meaning that unless your suggestion is implemented globally by a benevolent glorious world leader, you can forget about it unless of course you have already grown your economy into a highly productive global powerhouse that can afford more caring and sharing net-net.SCC wrote:Added to that, along with the bit of extra wealth that is seen in the provinces, goes all the arguing and jealously around it.
NOT adding to a caring sharing society.
If growth in the last 20 years had been 2% annually instead of say 6-10%, much more of the country & its people would be almost as miserable as they were 20 years ago. Imagine if you grow the economy at 10% for a quarter-decade, then vote in the socialists they have a much larger pie to redistribute. Whereas if you have as tiny growth as you suggest, they'd be out of options and probably wouldn't get voted in. Ignoring election realities in these parts.SCC wrote:Cambodia would be better off with a slow, steady 2 % growth where everything happens a lot slower and therefore is able to be dealt with better. Always getting wealthier but with more focus on equality in the local economy.
Or maybe it's an economy growing faster than your wallet can handle? Now that does sound challenging. The local economic/trade/finance officials/ministers/advisors might not accommodate your studious "2% growth would be better, really, take it slowly folks" suggestion in the worst case --- then, where to next?SCC wrote:The prices have already risen so I can no longer afford to live here working as a teacher.Well almost. Not because of the real prices of things, but because of the price hikes introduced through the knock on effect of foreigners in the tourist industry trying to get western prices in an LDC among other things.
Not good points. Maybe its an economy that my wallet can't handle So, all poor Cambodians and any other workers that try and make a difference here (teaching English with minimal impact on the local economy and culture) can go fuck themselves because a few wealthy people want to suck all the wealth into their pockets.metaleap wrote:Slow day on k440 and nothing else I'm really into tonight.. so why not feed back a little more into this newest of countless SCC-echo-chamber "threads".. for da lulz.
Always with your caring sharing society. Who is to care for whom, who is to share how much with whom? Bearing in mind in your more specific detailed reply that in the real world, 21st century all capital is globally movable almost at a mouse-click, and any country in full economic isolation may not last very long in a healthy state of affairs before widespread discontent, impoverishment, malnutrition or whatever begin to set hold. (Dare I say Cambodia 1975-1993? Among numerous other examples?) Meaning that unless your suggestion is implemented globally by a benevolent glorious world leader, you can forget about it unless of course you have already grown your economy into a highly productive global powerhouse that can afford more caring and sharing net-net.SCC wrote:Added to that, along with the bit of extra wealth that is seen in the provinces, goes all the arguing and jealously around it.
NOT adding to a caring sharing society.
If growth in the last 20 years had been 2% annually instead of say 6-10%, much more of the country & its people would be almost as miserable as they were 20 years ago. Imagine if you grow the economy at 10% for a quarter-decade, then vote in the socialists they have a much larger pie to redistribute. Whereas if you have as tiny growth as you suggest, they'd be out of options and probably wouldn't get voted in. Ignoring election realities in these parts.SCC wrote:Cambodia would be better off with a slow, steady 2 % growth where everything happens a lot slower and therefore is able to be dealt with better. Always getting wealthier but with more focus on equality in the local economy.
Or maybe it's an economy growing faster than your wallet can handle? Now that does sound challenging. The local economic/trade/finance officials/ministers/advisors might not accommodate your studious "2% growth would be better, really, take it slowly folks" suggestion in the worst case --- then, where to next?SCC wrote:The prices have already risen so I can no longer afford to live here working as a teacher.Well almost. Not because of the real prices of things, but because of the price hikes introduced through the knock on effect of foreigners in the tourist industry trying to get western prices in an LDC among other things.
There are plenty of top economists that think a slow growth figure is the best way for a society to develop. You know that, why not address it?
Your opening statement is nothing but f'ing rude which I expect from Lucky but not from you, however I will readjust my opinion. I'm trying to have a debate , OK it is also a way to help describe my own world view as posted elsewhere. You definitely sound more American than German. Socialism is good for America. There you are, now punch me in the face as so many other Americans have tried to do when i mention socialsm and America in the same breath. A typical reaction on any criticism of US policies by people who just want to hold their USA balls and salute the flag.
I'm presuming you see the world going along the US route as a good scenario? And therefore back the MIC and the war on terror and all the other political cheese to give the US the economic advantage at the cost of its humanity. Most people from the LDC's don't want to go to the US for social reasons or for their supposed great world view, but just to steal cash so as to be wealthy in their own countries. Good job.
You don't want a more caring sharing society? FU These countless echo chamber threads of SCC are also the ideas of some of the smartest people in the world. Your welcome to give your own opinion and I welcome a different one to mine as it helps debate and hopefully I will learn something. Don't just disagree and write in such a niggardly way.
Expand ( and I don't mean physically).
I was going to dump this whole subject of economics (only one part of my world thesis which is the introduction ) a while ago, but then people started posting a few threads tackling the subject, so I thought there may well be some people out there with a similar view of the craziness that is modern free market capitalist policies. Support your wars and the MIC, whilst denying their impact. I will just fade into the background and let you read countless threads on how enchanting it is to eat a 75 dollar cheese sandwich in a beach shack made of wood and grass. The cheese mongers certainly have done a good job on you.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
The generational shift in attitude towards benefits is perhaps the most frightening shift for advocates of the welfare state – and it is not a mere blip of one opinion poll. According to the long-running British Social Attitudes survey, today more than half of British people think unemployment benefits are too high – versus just over a third in the Thatcher era.
One man who might be said to epitomise Britain's individualistic new generation is Sam Bowman, the 24-year-old research director of the free-market Adam Smith Institute, who sees the shift as one caused by a new cosmopolitanism, brought on by the internet. "People our age are much more cosmopolitan," he says. "A 23- or 24-year-old Londoner is more likely to be concerned about Mumbai than Newcastle – we're much less interested in national boundaries: the internet lets you speak to people who you share interests with, wherever they live. Geographical unity is fine, but I think most people prefer the unity and friendship that comes from shared interests. We get to do that now."
Bowman theorises this "cosmopolitan outreach" could serve as a replacement for an emotional connection to the state. Borrowing a phrase from the economist Daniel Klein, he says: "The NHS has been described as 'the People's Romance': virtuous not because it's the best, but because we're all involved – it's unifying. In another generation, that role might have belonged to the army. It makes sense in this modern world that people are becoming less interested in these national institutions."
This difference of view on whether the journey through life is less a group adventure than a solo voyage is more social than political. Books such as Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone have highlighted how younger Americans are less inclined to join social clubs or get involved with community barbecues, and only last week an official survey recorded a rise in living and eating alone that is especially concentrated among the young.
Attitudes such as neighbourliness and patriotism are not mere opinions – lightly held and amenable to deftly pitched arguments – but far deeper beliefs that will be harder to shift. A last-ditch hope for proponents of any sort of politics of the common good is that today's youngsters might change with age – if they start out with a strident individualism to match the strident leftism of earlier generations then, perhaps, they too will mellow with age.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
You're really such a useless troll, or where you writing under the influence.. what's all that jizz about me being a USA fanboy of any sort, that aging empire has lot the plot for at least 2 generations now. Whatever. Good luck with what you think is your economic theory
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Lol! Having met you metaleap, I can concur that you are certainly no USA fanboy hahametaleap wrote:You're really such a useless troll, or where you writing under the influence.. what's all that jizz about me being a USA fanboy of any sort, that aging empire has lot the plot for at least 2 generations now. Whatever. Good luck with what you think is your economic theory
Many of their people are truly great folks.. and they were indeed at one point the greatest country on earth by my own perception. But that was long ago, certainly long before you and I were even born
Not loving or hating US per se, more a most curious observer of one of the most interesting phenomena of the 20th century. Whatever they did do, much of the world have either asked them to or passively allowed to.
Not loving or hating US per se, more a most curious observer of one of the most interesting phenomena of the 20th century. Whatever they did do, much of the world have either asked them to or passively allowed to.
Sorry ML, that was a load of bile and sputum that I threw Your way. No excuse appart from inebriation and you hit a nerve with your opening line. I do like the bit aboot balls and saluting thoughmetaleap wrote:Many of their people are truly great folks.. and they were indeed at one point the greatest country on earth by my own perception. But that was long ago, certainly long before you and I were even born
Not loving or hating US per se, more a most curious observer of one of the most interesting phenomena of the 20th century. Whatever they did do, much of the world have either asked them to or passively allowed to.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
I read this as being the Ab Fab syndrome. You know, where the kid grows up to believe the opposite of what their parents believe. In Absolutely Fabulous the parent was a leftist druggy, the kid turned out a straight laced tory. I've often thought this was more down to how the child gets on with the parents.Attitudes such as neighbourliness and patriotism are not mere opinions – lightly held and amenable to deftly pitched arguments – but far deeper beliefs that will be harder to shift. A last-ditch hope for proponents of any sort of politics of the common good is that today's youngsters might change with age – if they start out with a strident individualism to match the strident leftism of earlier generations then, perhaps, they too will mellow with age.
So maybe the Thatcher's Children's children will spurn a new left wing movement in the 2020's.
K440 : Lucky cheese for the gentry; poultry and death for the peasants.
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad."
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