Brexit Referendum June 23rd
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- MerkinMaker
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Brexit Referendum June 23rd
The date has been set, if I'm given the opportunity I will be voting to leave.
Just saw these amazing video from the London Grassroots Out campaign rally. George Galloway and Nigel Farage sharing the stage and pretty much saying the same thing, for those not familiar with UK politics these two are at complete opposite ends of the political spectrum (or at least that's what the media will have you believe).
A comparison has been made between then and Tony Benn / Enoch Powell who also united in an unlikely union during the referendum to join the precursor to the EU, and I would agree. The reason being that just like Benn and Powell, the politics of Galloway and Farage are misunderstood and deliberately misrepresented by the establishment controlled British media. Both Benn and Galloway are labelled as "far left" when in fact they are democratic socialists, whilst Powell and Farage are labelled as "far right" when in fact they are libertarians.
What's terrifying for the British political elite is the prospect of the British electorate realising that politics isn't a straight line between left and right, it's in fact two dimensional (x-axis = left/right, y-axis liberty/authority) and that now we've basically all settled somewhere just left or right of center on the x-axis, the true battle is occurring on the y-axis between liberty and authority with both of the establishment political parties in the UK pulling heavily towards political and corporate authority.
I'm really looking forward to the Brexit campaign, I think it has the potential to trigger the biggest political shakeup in the UK for decades.
Just saw these amazing video from the London Grassroots Out campaign rally. George Galloway and Nigel Farage sharing the stage and pretty much saying the same thing, for those not familiar with UK politics these two are at complete opposite ends of the political spectrum (or at least that's what the media will have you believe).
A comparison has been made between then and Tony Benn / Enoch Powell who also united in an unlikely union during the referendum to join the precursor to the EU, and I would agree. The reason being that just like Benn and Powell, the politics of Galloway and Farage are misunderstood and deliberately misrepresented by the establishment controlled British media. Both Benn and Galloway are labelled as "far left" when in fact they are democratic socialists, whilst Powell and Farage are labelled as "far right" when in fact they are libertarians.
What's terrifying for the British political elite is the prospect of the British electorate realising that politics isn't a straight line between left and right, it's in fact two dimensional (x-axis = left/right, y-axis liberty/authority) and that now we've basically all settled somewhere just left or right of center on the x-axis, the true battle is occurring on the y-axis between liberty and authority with both of the establishment political parties in the UK pulling heavily towards political and corporate authority.
I'm really looking forward to the Brexit campaign, I think it has the potential to trigger the biggest political shakeup in the UK for decades.
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- MerkinMaker
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And as if to instantly prove my point The Daily Mail take the Galloway/Farage and Benn/Powell connection and label them the " new toxic twins". Any two people who can manage to simultaneously piss off "New" Labour, David Cameron and the readership of The Daily Mail (read the comments) must be doing something right!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html
And if anyone is in any doubt about how deliberately manipulative the British media is read this sentence from the article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html
And if anyone is in any doubt about how deliberately manipulative the British media is read this sentence from the article:
And then go to the 53rd second of the video of the Galloway speech above, as you will see the hall is packed and he is being applauded. As usual the The Daily Mail is publishing absolute nonsense.However, the surprise appearance of the former Respect MP backfired, with dozens of the mainly Right-leaning audience walking out in protest.
- Petrol Head
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Out of interest SM, would you vote to leave if the EU booted the PIIGS ?
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
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Genuine question SM - would you want Cambodia to leave ASEAN? Why/why not?
I came, I argued, I'm out
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- MerkinMaker
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Yes, the only way I would vote to remain in the EU would be if it was nothing more than a free trade zone. That's not what the EU is about anymore, the objective/reality now is a federalised Europe.Petrol Head wrote:Out of interest SM, would you vote to leave if the EU booted the PIIGS ?
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- MerkinMaker
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Yes, because I believe in small devolved government with the shortest distance possible between the electorate and the elected. Moving toward federalised empires isn't progress, it just further dilutes our already worthless vote.andyinasia wrote:Genuine question SM - would you want Cambodia to leave ASEAN? Why/why not?
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Taking your last two responses together, I'd suggest that ASEAN is currently trying to emulate the original EEC, which was more of a free-trade zone, and is what Ted Heath signed up to. I don't think ASEAN is or is trying to be the sort of bureaucratic federation you see the current EU as. Thoughts?
I came, I argued, I'm out
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- Wun Gwo Pee
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Farage is not a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. Most of UKIPs policies have little to do with libertarian values. What is libertarian about keeping tax rates at present high levels? What is libertarian about spending an extra $12billion on the NHS? What is libertarian about pledging to build a million homes on brownfield sites.What is libertarian about enforcing the minimum wage? All these policies are taken from their 2015 manifesto on their own website (perhaps stark monster thinks the illumaniti hacked it and changed them, I don't know).
Whatever the rights or wrongs of those policies, they are most certainly not libertarian. If anything they are closer to democratic socialism. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it's a fucking shovel.
And that's the irony, isn't it? A guy attacked for being far right is actually a leftie, yet his odious party attracts support from a lot of knuckle-drugging racists.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of those policies, they are most certainly not libertarian. If anything they are closer to democratic socialism. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it's a fucking shovel.
And that's the irony, isn't it? A guy attacked for being far right is actually a leftie, yet his odious party attracts support from a lot of knuckle-drugging racists.
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- MerkinMaker
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Of course, that's how it starts. If they just came straight out and said the end vision is to have a one border, one parliament, one flag, one anthem and one army no one would ever vote for that. The strategy is to begin as a partial economic union, followed by a complete economic union with a single currency, you then move into a partial political union with a single border and free movement, you then move to a complete political union with a single flag, single army and single parliament. This is called "ever closer union", our leaders have already sworn to it:andyinasia wrote:Taking your last two responses together, I'd suggest that ASEAN is currently trying to emulate the original EEC, which was more of a free-trade zone, and is what Ted Heath signed up to. I don't think ASEAN is or is trying to be the sort of bureaucratic federation you see the current EU as. Thoughts?
At any stage of the way anyone gets cold feet about political union and starts to pull back they can be threatened with economic catastrophe if they leave the economic package, "it's not a buffet" is their favourite line, it's all or nothing, you can't pick a choose."The Heads of State or Government, on the basis of an awareness of a common destiny and the wish to affirm the European identity, confirm their commitment to progress towards an ever closer union among the peoples and Member States of the European Community."
The UK is best positioned of all members to leave as they didn't adopt the Euro, are a net importer of European goods and as the UK's main industry is financial services which is untouchable on a geopolitical level. The timing is also good as the EU is in a position of weakness both economically (Euro crisis) and socially (refugee crisis). Basically other EU leaders don't have the political capital domestically to attempt any punitive measures.
Also don't forget that just like the EU, ASEAN is a geopolitical construct of the US. Only this time China is what needs a counter balance rather than the USSR:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hiefs.html
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- MerkinMaker
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^^ This is the problem with the UK. So many people now incapable of critical thinking, have no depth of knowledge, and just regurgitate whatever they saw on a panel show or read in a headline that day. I'm talking about Farage and you are talking about UKIP. No party reflects completely the personal ideas and opinions of it leader, unless you live in North Korea that is. I've listened and read material from Farage extensively, and I'm not talking about BBC panel shows where each person gets thirty seconds to speak and the content is steered by a television presenter.alanclarke72 wrote:Farage is not a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. Most of UKIPs policies have little to do with libertarian values. What is libertarian about keeping tax rates at present high levels? What is libertarian about spending an extra $12billion on the NHS? What is libertarian about pledging to build a million homes on brownfield sites.What is libertarian about enforcing the minimum wage? All these policies are taken from their 2015 manifesto on their own website (perhaps stark monster thinks the illumaniti hacked it and changed them, I don't know).
Whatever the rights or wrongs of those policies, they are most certainly not libertarian. If anything they are closer to democratic socialism. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it's a fucking shovel.
And that's the irony, isn't it? A guy attacked for being far right is actually a leftie, yet his odious party attracts support from a lot of knuckle-drugging racists.
Alan, an honest questions. Did you take the time to watch the two video's I posted before you replied?
I've listened to dozens of hours of material from Farage, with everything from his speeches to the European parliament to his call in shows on LBC. I've also listened to and read lots of material from George Galloway, from that I have made my own informed opinion on their unique political positions. I have a keen interest in politics and like to hear what politicians have to say directly without having news media act as a middleman. In my opinion out of all the household name politicians in the UK Farage is the most libertarian in his personal views.
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- Wun Gwo Pee
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Have I watched the videos. Yes. The usual trite nonsense from the usual suspects.
Now let's turn to Farage and UKIP. You have previously called yourself a libertarian here many times. You have also said that you would vote UKIP, which has anything other than libertarian views. Are you now saying you would vote for a party which doesn't reflect the views of its leader or, it seems, yourself? That's ridiculous.
Farage would have signed off those policies - they are UKIP policies which he campaigned for during the last election. He either believed in them - which means my arse is more libertarian than him - or he is an opportunistic charlatan. It's one or the other.
I find it compelling that you align yourself with a party of bigots.
Now let's turn to Farage and UKIP. You have previously called yourself a libertarian here many times. You have also said that you would vote UKIP, which has anything other than libertarian views. Are you now saying you would vote for a party which doesn't reflect the views of its leader or, it seems, yourself? That's ridiculous.
Farage would have signed off those policies - they are UKIP policies which he campaigned for during the last election. He either believed in them - which means my arse is more libertarian than him - or he is an opportunistic charlatan. It's one or the other.
I find it compelling that you align yourself with a party of bigots.
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- My Only Friend is my Computer
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Are you already registered to vote (as an overseas/postal/proxy voter)? If you're not then it's too late to get on the register for this one.starkmonster wrote:The date has been set, if I'm given the opportunity I will be voting to leave.
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and ...
- vladimir
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ASEAN is a non-realisable dream, a marketing/PR illusion.starkmonster wrote:Yes, because I believe in small devolved government with the shortest distance possible between the electorate and the elected. Moving toward federalised empires isn't progress, it just further dilutes our already worthless vote.andyinasia wrote:Genuine question SM - would you want Cambodia to leave ASEAN? Why/why not?
If it ever materialises, Cambodia will lose.
Besides the practical economic aspects, the rampant racism and xenophobia will never allow it to happen.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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- MerkinMaker
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I wish UKIP or any party was tightly aligned with the individual political beliefs of Farage. Currently I would vote for UKIP mainly because of Farage and the fact I agree with at least the majority of his positions and their position as a party on the EU, if Farage wasn't the leader and we were out of the EU I would likely go back to my previous position of not supporting any party in the UK.alanclarke72 wrote:Have I watched the videos. Yes. The usual trite nonsense from the usual suspects.
Now let's turn to Farage and UKIP. You have previously called yourself a libertarian here many times. You have also said that you would vote UKIP, which has anything other than libertarian views. Are you now saying you would vote for a party which doesn't reflect the views of its leader or, it seems, yourself? That's ridiculous.
Farage would have signed off those policies - they are UKIP policies which he campaigned for during the last election. He either believed in them - which means my arse is more libertarian than him - or he is an opportunistic charlatan. It's one or the other.
I find it compelling that you align yourself with a party of bigots.
Anyway, I'm putting you on ignore now because this thread is about Brexit and you have a strong record of derailing any thread that touches UK politics. You've put forward your position, that in your opinion Farage isn't compatible with a libertarian position and that anyone that supports UKIP (i.e. wants to leave the EU) is a bigot. What you haven't put forward is any comment on Brexit or the videos posted above therefore you are adding nothing of value to the conversation.
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