A Question of Retribution
- Petrol Head
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A Question of Retribution
When I first lobbed here, I was fascinated by the tolerance of Mrs PH's ex-KR driver among herself and her colleagues.
I remember thinking that one of the greatest things about Asian people was their ability to function after the upheaval of the cold war; the Khmers being perhaps the most stunning example of this.
I also remember thinking, if this was Europe or the Middle East and there was a blood feud, then the driver would be a dead man. Certainly, I would have slit his throat if my family were put / worked to death by the regime. Wouldn't feel a bit bad about it either.
Revisiting this thought with a colleague today, I still have as little an understanding of this tolerance now as I did then.
Granted, Lucan and others have posted numerous examples of bloody revenge in the immediate aftermath of the war over the years. What baffles me however, is the absence of even sporadic bloody payback within the pages of Raksmey Kampuchea et al.
Going back to the theorem of the Cambodian engine room:
1. No one gives a shit; with the caveats to this below in order of descending importance;
2. My family are sanctified;
3. Power is vertical and is taken and retained through force;
4. The immediate neighbors are to be feared.
Is point 1 really so overpowering such that it can truly overwhelm point 2, even in cases of the most intimate violation of point 2? Does it infer that point 2 is some sort of national learned normative behavior that is actually illusory, in fact. It would help to explain why one so frequently sees unsupervised children running wild in dangerous situations countrywide.
In the myriad of communial meals a Khmer will consume with their family over a lifetime, are mothers, fathers, uncles, cousins, aunties really failing to address why a certain mother, father, uncle, cousin, aunty will be forever absent from said meal? Do the younger generation care eitherway?
I remember thinking that one of the greatest things about Asian people was their ability to function after the upheaval of the cold war; the Khmers being perhaps the most stunning example of this.
I also remember thinking, if this was Europe or the Middle East and there was a blood feud, then the driver would be a dead man. Certainly, I would have slit his throat if my family were put / worked to death by the regime. Wouldn't feel a bit bad about it either.
Revisiting this thought with a colleague today, I still have as little an understanding of this tolerance now as I did then.
Granted, Lucan and others have posted numerous examples of bloody revenge in the immediate aftermath of the war over the years. What baffles me however, is the absence of even sporadic bloody payback within the pages of Raksmey Kampuchea et al.
Going back to the theorem of the Cambodian engine room:
1. No one gives a shit; with the caveats to this below in order of descending importance;
2. My family are sanctified;
3. Power is vertical and is taken and retained through force;
4. The immediate neighbors are to be feared.
Is point 1 really so overpowering such that it can truly overwhelm point 2, even in cases of the most intimate violation of point 2? Does it infer that point 2 is some sort of national learned normative behavior that is actually illusory, in fact. It would help to explain why one so frequently sees unsupervised children running wild in dangerous situations countrywide.
In the myriad of communial meals a Khmer will consume with their family over a lifetime, are mothers, fathers, uncles, cousins, aunties really failing to address why a certain mother, father, uncle, cousin, aunty will be forever absent from said meal? Do the younger generation care eitherway?
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
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- Wun Gwo Pee
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Excellent post, Petrolhead, and something I've often wondered about. I still find myself looking at people in their 60s and 70s and wondering what happened to them during the 70s.
What role in the KR did the driver have? It's quite likely that the vast majority of KR cadres were little more than teenage footsoldiers or minor level functionaries. You just have to look at some of the kids walking through Phnom Penh in the pics from April 1975 to see they were as bewildered as what was happening as everyone else. If they are just low level soldiers, should they expect any more retribution than, say, a low-ranking soldier from the German Army?
What role in the KR did the driver have? It's quite likely that the vast majority of KR cadres were little more than teenage footsoldiers or minor level functionaries. You just have to look at some of the kids walking through Phnom Penh in the pics from April 1975 to see they were as bewildered as what was happening as everyone else. If they are just low level soldiers, should they expect any more retribution than, say, a low-ranking soldier from the German Army?
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Speaking of revenge against the KR, one KR official was murdered in Paris in 1984 along with a wife and some visitors. However that's the only time I've heard of high profile revenge. The Armenians on the other hand have killed 80+ Turkish diplomatic staff in attacks.
- Petrol Head
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We're fairly certain that he was just a shitkicker soldier. But he was 'proper KR' as in he would have been in his late teens in 1975. He may have continued on as a legacy KR after 1979, all we know is that he came to the city in the 1990s.
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- Wun Gwo Pee
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I always assumed (but am happy to be corrected by Lucky Lucan, LTO, Felger etc) that the run of the mill teen soldiers were poorly educated village kids who had little interest and no understanding of KR ideology, let alone any interest in the way it was implemented after 1979. I suspect most were more interested in the meals the KR provided in the jungle.
That said, I do find it amazing that most of the young Khmer people I speak to seem totally ambivalent about what happened during that time. Perhaps it's some kind of coping mechanism instilled in them by grieving families. I don't know.
That said, I do find it amazing that most of the young Khmer people I speak to seem totally ambivalent about what happened during that time. Perhaps it's some kind of coping mechanism instilled in them by grieving families. I don't know.
- Petrol Head
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That's the theme isnt it? Ambivalence. It's soul destroying if you think on it too long.
There's a video that Lucan posted somewhere that shows the total and baffling ambivalence among government and legacy KR soldiers in the 1990s. I wish I could find it.
In one scene, a father has one son in the government and one in the KR. The brothers would trade fire periodically during the day then settle down for a meal in their respective camps. When they werent exchanging fire, they could move freely within each other's disputed territory taking supplies here and there from the villagers.
But you'd think the 1980s and 1990s would have been a hotbed for aggrieved young men to join the government side and get full-blown payback wouldnt you? Maybe they did. But I've not heard of accounts of government massacres within known KR villages during the 1980s or 90s.
There's a video that Lucan posted somewhere that shows the total and baffling ambivalence among government and legacy KR soldiers in the 1990s. I wish I could find it.
In one scene, a father has one son in the government and one in the KR. The brothers would trade fire periodically during the day then settle down for a meal in their respective camps. When they werent exchanging fire, they could move freely within each other's disputed territory taking supplies here and there from the villagers.
But you'd think the 1980s and 1990s would have been a hotbed for aggrieved young men to join the government side and get full-blown payback wouldnt you? Maybe they did. But I've not heard of accounts of government massacres within known KR villages during the 1980s or 90s.
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
- spitthedog
- Is the World Outside still there ?
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''4. The immediate neighbors are to be feared''
Is this the case even out in the real world Cambodia boonies? ie, is there no real community spirit in Cambodia? (not that there is any in the UK anymore)
My hunch is that most of the young KR soldiers didn't really know who the fcuk they were (not many of us do below the age of 30) and the very young can be taught to fight without any fear and can be brainwashed to be brainless (especially if your family/village had been carpet bombed).
I watched a top young Muay Thai fighter being carried into a thai hospital on the news the other month after being drugged/poisoned by what must have been mafia betting rings. Just pawns in a bigger game i guess.
Is this the case even out in the real world Cambodia boonies? ie, is there no real community spirit in Cambodia? (not that there is any in the UK anymore)
My hunch is that most of the young KR soldiers didn't really know who the fcuk they were (not many of us do below the age of 30) and the very young can be taught to fight without any fear and can be brainwashed to be brainless (especially if your family/village had been carpet bombed).
I watched a top young Muay Thai fighter being carried into a thai hospital on the news the other month after being drugged/poisoned by what must have been mafia betting rings. Just pawns in a bigger game i guess.
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
- Petrol Head
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No. I contend there is absolutely no such thing as a Cambodian society.
Rather it's a collection of patronage networks that hold the entire thing together from bottom to top.
Whether you get the garbage collected or your road sealed in stung meanchey or outer Battambang depends on your 'family' ties.
Family doesn't necessarily mean blood - it's the reason Cambodians will refer to 'friendly' neighbors as 'auntie' and 'uncle'.
If you can't or won't build a bridge with the neighbors for whatever reason then the attitude is basically fuck em.
Rather it's a collection of patronage networks that hold the entire thing together from bottom to top.
Whether you get the garbage collected or your road sealed in stung meanchey or outer Battambang depends on your 'family' ties.
Family doesn't necessarily mean blood - it's the reason Cambodians will refer to 'friendly' neighbors as 'auntie' and 'uncle'.
If you can't or won't build a bridge with the neighbors for whatever reason then the attitude is basically fuck em.
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
- Lucky Lucan
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Any accounts I've heard of army life during that time sounded pretty grim. Little or no pay, starvation rations and then fighting in whatever shitty place they were sent to. Most did their best to avoid military service or get the hell out asap.Petrol Head wrote:
But you'd think the 1980s and 1990s would have been a hotbed for aggrieved young men to join the government side and get full-blown payback wouldnt you? Maybe they did.
This documents some pretty dodgy stuff the RCAF was up to in the 90s.:But I've not heard of accounts of government massacres within known KR villages during the 1980s or 90s.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/c/cambo ... dia953.pdf
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
- Petrol Head
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Cheers Lucan - that's what I'm looking for.
I'm not sure if tough conditions are necessarily a stopper though.
I'm thinking the Tutsi pushback after the Rwandan genocide, Israeli nazi hunters immediately after ww2 and my favorite example:-
I remember my sister had these absolutely stunning Serb twin friends. They were educated, intelligent, lived a life of luxury. Dad was a Cathay pilot. One day there was a tennis match on between a Serb and a Croat and the shit that was coming out of their pretty mouths...
Point being, there is unquestionably a gulf between Cambodians and Europe / Africa / Middle East when it comes to dealing with trauma. In lieu of any sort of national healing initiative, I have absolutely no idea what it is - I can only speculate.
It's not a bad thing mind, the place would look like the flintstones still if they did adopt a stance like the rest of the world does when it comes to vendettas.
I'm not sure if tough conditions are necessarily a stopper though.
I'm thinking the Tutsi pushback after the Rwandan genocide, Israeli nazi hunters immediately after ww2 and my favorite example:-
I remember my sister had these absolutely stunning Serb twin friends. They were educated, intelligent, lived a life of luxury. Dad was a Cathay pilot. One day there was a tennis match on between a Serb and a Croat and the shit that was coming out of their pretty mouths...
Point being, there is unquestionably a gulf between Cambodians and Europe / Africa / Middle East when it comes to dealing with trauma. In lieu of any sort of national healing initiative, I have absolutely no idea what it is - I can only speculate.
It's not a bad thing mind, the place would look like the flintstones still if they did adopt a stance like the rest of the world does when it comes to vendettas.
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
- Felgerkarb
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That report. Christ. Somebody stole/leaked/fed a lot of Intel reports from that period and they formed a large part of that report.Lucky Lucan wrote:Any accounts I've heard of army life during that time sounded pretty grim. Little or no pay, starvation rations and then fighting in whatever shitty place they were sent to. Most did their best to avoid military service or get the hell out asap.Petrol Head wrote:
But you'd think the 1980s and 1990s would have been a hotbed for aggrieved young men to join the government side and get full-blown payback wouldnt you? Maybe they did.
This documents some pretty dodgy stuff the RCAF was up to in the 90s.:But I've not heard of accounts of government massacres within known KR villages during the 1980s or 90s.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/c/cambo ... dia953.pdf
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Why are the gods such vicious cunts?
Where is the god of tits and wine?
Why are the gods such vicious cunts?
Where is the god of tits and wine?
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