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Bitcoins worth more than gold

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Expand view Topic review: Bitcoins worth more than gold

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote chilliwilli

by chilliwilli » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:43 pm

Thank me later...
$BUND
it’s an NTF

buy ETH or BTC
swap to BUND at app.uniswap.org

Current MC is $4m

Could easily go 100x
Thank me later...
$BUND
it’s an NTF

buy ETH or BTC
swap to BUND at app.uniswap.org

Current MC is $4m

Could easily go 100x

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote starkmonster

by starkmonster » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:04 pm

spitthedog wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:03 am
I'll condense it down abit.

"Abstract future and building higher level abstractions"

So alot of ideas without facts then??

That seems similar to what i've been saying all along dude.
Okay here is an example from HMLR (Her Majesties Land Registry UK) of a higher level abstraction. I was at a presentation in London in 2019 where they demonstrated a working prototype, of a complete property transfer flow happening completely on-chain with smart contracts removing the need for lawyers, escrow accounts, registration handling, manual tax payment, manual stamp duty payment and traditional transfer contracts.

You see that's what blockchain is about, peer to peer value transfer without the need for intermediaries or trusted third parties. That is revolutionary in scope and impact.

That presentation isn't online, but here's something similar that the HMLR lab has been working on for the purchase of equity in commercial real estate: https://consensys.net/codefi/assets/hmlr/

Here's the video:



This use case is looking at the macro end of things (very high ticket item), where things get even more interesting is at the micro end of things with transaction streams for fractions of a cent that can't be handled by tradition mediums of digital value exchange. That's probably a little too "abstract" for here though.
[quote=spitthedog post_id=1026471 time=1614798227 user_id=37413]I'll condense it down abit.

"Abstract future and building higher level abstractions"

So alot of ideas without facts then??

That seems similar to what i've been saying all along dude.
[/quote]

Okay here is an example from HMLR (Her Majesties Land Registry UK) of a higher level abstraction. I was at a presentation in London in 2019 where they demonstrated a working prototype, of a complete property transfer flow happening completely on-chain with smart contracts removing the need for lawyers, escrow accounts, registration handling, manual tax payment, manual stamp duty payment and traditional transfer contracts.

You see that's what blockchain is about, peer to peer value transfer without the need for intermediaries or trusted third parties. That is revolutionary in scope and impact.

That presentation isn't online, but here's something similar that the HMLR lab has been working on for the purchase of equity in commercial real estate: [url]https://consensys.net/codefi/assets/hmlr/[/url]

Here's the video:

[bbvideo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2PsS_Rc5yQ[/bbvideo]

This use case is looking at the macro end of things (very high ticket item), where things get even more interesting is at the micro end of things with transaction streams for fractions of a cent that can't be handled by tradition mediums of digital value exchange. That's probably a little too "abstract" for here though.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold - Page 30

  • Quote kinard

by kinard » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:17 am

Gunman wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:08 am
...worldwide governments, will either regulate crypto out of existence or regulate cryptos into existence.

More than likely, it will be the banks trying to accommodate the cryptos and creating blockchain accounts.

Some banks already using blockchain technology.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/cur ... 14901?op=1
[quote=Gunman post_id=1026478 time=1614812897]
...worldwide governments, will either regulate crypto out of existence or regulate cryptos into existence.[/quote]
More than likely, it will be the banks trying to accommodate the cryptos and creating blockchain accounts.

Some banks already using blockchain technology.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/currencies/news/blockchain-technology-financial-institutions-jpmorgan-bitcoin-citi-cryptocurrency-transactions-btc-2021-2-1030114901?op=1

Bitcoins worth more than gold - Page 30

  • Quote Gunman

by Gunman » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:08 am

The elephants in the room, that is the worldwide governments, will either regulate crypto out of existence or regulate cryptos into existence.

Until then, cryptos existence is in no mans land.
Contracts in cryptos are unenforceable.
Payments in cryptos are unsecure.

Cryptos were invented to be game tokens and still are only game tokens.
The elephants in the room, that is the worldwide governments, will either regulate crypto out of existence or regulate cryptos into existence.

Until then, cryptos existence is in no mans land.
Contracts in cryptos are unenforceable.
Payments in cryptos are unsecure.

Cryptos were invented to be game tokens and still are only game tokens.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote Nakamoto

by Nakamoto » Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:13 am

starkmonster wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:19 pm
Find anything in finance that has ever performed like that:


Image
Yes, the M1 money supply
[quote=starkmonster post_id=1026356 time=1614701940 user_id=32942]
Find anything in finance that has ever performed like that:


[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/dVBDcRgG/3.png[/img][/url]
[/quote]

Yes, the M1 money supply

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote Nakamoto

by Nakamoto » Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:08 am

Alexandra wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:08 pm
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:24 am
I always wondered where the supply of "free" Bitcoins comes from for miners who "verify blockchain (transactions?)" first?
Bitcoin mining and verification are two different things. There's a small reward for verification because it requires a small amount of computation power, but there are many transactions and every transaction needs verification, but verification and mining is not the same.

Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:24 am
Especially considering that as time goes on, verifying them becomes so much more intensive as the blockchain grows longer -- requiring plenty of computer power, processing time and large quantities of expensive electricity...
Bitcoin design takes Moore's law into consideration: computational power of computers increases every couple of years.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:24 am
At the beginning of Bitcoin miners who "verified a blockchain" received 50 free bitcoins... What is the difference between "verifying a blockchain" and "actually mining" a single Bitcoin? ...Nothing online that I have read makes this mushy nonsense clear... Where do these magical free bitcoin rewards for "blockchain verifying miners" who win by verifying a current block first come from?[/i] Halving has continued to reduce miner's rewards from 50 to 25 to 12.5 and now 6.25 free per block verification... I guess that someone has a fat purse of free bitcoins just waiting to disburse to those who verify blocks first
When a Bitcoin amount is transferred from one wallet to another the sender has to pay a transaction fee. The transaction fee is a voluntary amount with a minimum required value. The higher the transaction fee, the faster the transaction is verified by other Bitcoin connected peers. The transaction fee paid by the sender for the transaction is the "magical" reward.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:24 am
The only possible mathematical explanation would be that, back at the beginning, the blockchain verification process took less time because the blockchain was "shorter"... and so Bitcoin blockchain transactions were being verified more quickly... But if it took one miner one blockchain verification to win an award of 50 free Bitcoins at the beginning, where did the free reward Bitcoins actually come from? If verifying a blockchain consists of verifying Bitcoin transactions, this still does not explain WHERE the new free Bitcoins COME FROM?
Not only did the blockchain grow in size. The amount of available peers in the Bitcoin network grew (expected) and the amount of transactions increased (expected). The system is designed taking these things in consideration.

The new Bitcoins come from cracking encrypted blocks that were created at launch. Due to the limited number of blocks there is a deterministic limited number of coins that can be mined.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:24 am
Who actually knows the difference between "verifying a blockchain" and "minting a new Bitcoin"?
When Bitcoin was created a large amount of encrypted data was generated. Networked computers spend computational power to crack the cryptographic blocks. When a block is cracked the computers that partook end up with private keys for cryptographic blocks. The private keys are the currency, the amount of Bitcoin they receive for participating in "mining" the coin. The amount that they receive depends on the amount of computational power they spent to participate.

Like with any asymmetric cryptography there is a public and private key. The private key is used for signing transactions and the public key is used for verifying them.

The difference between mining and verification is that mining generates private keys and verification verifies transactions using public keys, like in other public key cryptography systems.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:24 am
None of the articles below hint remotely at how it would have been possible to award the first miner to verify a blockchain with "50 free" Bitcoins at the beginning of the enterprise -- when there were many fewer Bitcoins -- as compared to now, when a miner can only get 6.25 "free bitcoin" for "verifying a block..." even as there are millions more whole Bitcoins now in circulation than at the beginning stage... Doesn't it all sound contradictory and nonsensical?
It is not contradictory and nonsensical. It uses private and public keys like any other asymmetric cryptographic system, for example SSL and PGP.

The first Bitcoin block, the genesis block, was minded by Satoshi. From the genesis block he generated the first 50 Bitcoins. He sent 10 Bitcoins to Hal Finney. The transaction was verified using Satoshi's public key.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:30 am
Perhaps the Reward Bitcoins are "Spontaneously Generated" upon winning the transactional verification race. Okay, but where do they "appear"? In the miner's brokerage account?
Bitcoins are never spontaneously generated. That would defeat the whole purpose. It's a long chain of verifiable math. They never appear randomly from thin air. That would be a very broken system.

In order to verify a Bitcoin transaction you must run a Bitcoin node, a computer with a Bitcoin software. If you are using a broker then you are not running a Bitcoin client and you will never verify any transactions and you will never receive a reward for doing so. The broker is your Bitcoin node and they're not in the business of giving you free money.

If you do run a Bitcoin client and you happen to verify a transaction the rewarding Bitcoins are transferred to your wallet.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:30 am
No matter where the new Bitcoins "appear" first, don't they also need to contain a new Identity AND have appended to them all earlier Bitcoin I.D.s in the preceding chain, to verify its authenticity?
No, the sender pays a transaction fee.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:30 am
But I thought ALL BITCOINS -- each and every single Bitcoin -- contains an identical register of transactions or some sort of "history" which verifies it is genuine...
Yes, they do. They are cryptographically signed and verified.
Orichá wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:30 am
I thought all Bitcoins were handled fluidly by brokers..? How can you actually HOLD a Bitcoin on your own PC? I guess you can't... Hmmmmm...
By downloading a Bitcoin client and transferring a Bitcoin to your wallet. A Bitcoin is a piece of text. It's a variable for a large equation.
Computers running a node verify transactions. They don't recieve any rewards, except that they can verify their own transactions. You have a half understanding. Some other errors in your post which I won't address here.
[quote=Alexandra post_id=1026319 time=1614672535 user_id=40621]
[quote=Orichá post_id=1026291 time=1614648296 user_id=40001]
I always wondered [i]where the supply of "free" Bitcoins comes from[/i] for miners who "verify blockchain (transactions?)" first?[/quote]

Bitcoin mining and verification are two different things. There's a small reward for verification because it requires a small amount of computation power, but there are many transactions and every transaction needs verification, but verification and mining is not the same.


[quote=Orichá post_id=1026291 time=1614648296 user_id=40001]
[b]Especially considering that as time goes on, verifying them becomes so much more intensive as the blockchain grows longer[/b] -- [u]requiring plenty of computer power, processing time and large quantities of expensive electricity... [/u][/quote]

Bitcoin design takes Moore's law into consideration: computational power of computers increases every couple of years.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026291 time=1614648296 user_id=40001]
At the beginning of Bitcoin miners who "verified a blockchain" received 50 free bitcoins... What is the difference between "verifying a blockchain" and "actually mining" a single Bitcoin? ...Nothing online that I have read makes this mushy nonsense clear... Where do these magical free bitcoin rewards for "blockchain verifying miners" who win by verifying a current block first come from?[/i] Halving has continued to reduce miner's rewards from 50 to 25 to 12.5 and now 6.25 free per block verification... I guess that someone has a fat purse of free bitcoins just waiting to disburse to those who verify blocks first[/quote]

When a Bitcoin amount is transferred from one wallet to another the sender has to pay a transaction fee. The transaction fee is a voluntary amount with a minimum required value. The higher the transaction fee, the faster the transaction is verified by other Bitcoin connected peers. The transaction fee paid by the sender for the transaction is the "magical" reward.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026291 time=1614648296 user_id=40001]The only possible mathematical explanation would be that, back at the beginning, the blockchain verification process took less time because the blockchain was "shorter"... and so Bitcoin blockchain transactions were being verified[i] more quickly[/i]... But if it took one miner one blockchain verification to win an award of 50 free Bitcoins at the beginning, where did the free reward Bitcoins actually come from? If verifying a blockchain consists of verifying Bitcoin transactions, [b]this still does not explain [/b][b]WHERE the new free Bitcoins COME FROM[/b]?[/quote]

Not only did the blockchain grow in size. The amount of available peers in the Bitcoin network grew (expected) and the amount of transactions increased (expected). The system is designed taking these things in consideration.

The new Bitcoins come from cracking encrypted blocks that were created at launch. Due to the limited number of blocks there is a deterministic limited number of coins that can be mined.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026291 time=1614648296 user_id=40001]
Who actually knows the difference between "verifying a blockchain" and "minting a new Bitcoin"?
[/quote]

When Bitcoin was created a large amount of encrypted data was generated. Networked computers spend computational power to crack the cryptographic blocks. When a block is cracked the computers that partook end up with private keys for cryptographic blocks. The private keys are the currency, the amount of Bitcoin they receive for participating in "mining" the coin. The amount that they receive depends on the amount of computational power they spent to participate.

Like with any [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography]asymmetric cryptography[/url] there is a public and private key. The private key is used for [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signature]signing transactions[/url] and the public key is used for verifying them.

The difference between mining and verification is that mining generates private keys and verification verifies transactions using public keys, like in other public key cryptography systems.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026291 time=1614648296 user_id=40001]
[b]None of the articles below[/b] hint remotely at how it would have been possible to award the first miner to verify a blockchain with "50 free" Bitcoins at the beginning of the enterprise -- when there were many fewer Bitcoins -- as compared to now, when a miner can only get 6.25 "free bitcoin" for "verifying a block..." even as there are millions more whole Bitcoins now in circulation than at the beginning stage... Doesn't it all sound contradictory and nonsensical?
[/quote]

It is not contradictory and nonsensical. It uses private and public keys like any other asymmetric cryptographic system, for example SSL and PGP.

The first Bitcoin block, the genesis block, was minded by Satoshi. From the genesis block he generated the first 50 Bitcoins. He sent 10 Bitcoins to Hal Finney. The transaction was verified using Satoshi's public key.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026300 time=1614655839 user_id=40001]
Perhaps the Reward Bitcoins are "Spontaneously Generated" upon winning the transactional verification race. Okay, but where do they "appear"? In the miner's brokerage account?[/quote]

Bitcoins are never spontaneously generated. That would defeat the whole purpose. It's a long chain of verifiable math. They never appear randomly from thin air. That would be a very broken system.

In order to verify a Bitcoin transaction you must run a Bitcoin node, a computer with a Bitcoin software. If you are using a broker then you are not running a Bitcoin client and you will never verify any transactions and you will never receive a reward for doing so. The broker is your Bitcoin node and they're not in the business of giving you free money.

If you do run a Bitcoin client and you happen to verify a transaction the rewarding Bitcoins are transferred to your wallet.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026300 time=1614655839 user_id=40001]
No matter where the new Bitcoins "appear" first, don't they also need to contain a new Identity AND have appended to them all earlier Bitcoin I.D.s in the preceding chain, to verify its authenticity?[/quote]

No, the sender pays a transaction fee.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026300 time=1614655839 user_id=40001]
But I thought ALL BITCOINS -- each and every single Bitcoin -- contains an identical register of transactions or some sort of "history" which verifies it is genuine...[/quote]

Yes, they do. They are cryptographically signed and verified.

[quote=Orichá post_id=1026300 time=1614655839 user_id=40001]
I thought all Bitcoins were handled fluidly by brokers..? How can you actually HOLD a Bitcoin on your own PC? I guess you can't... [i]Hmmmmm[/i]...
[/quote]

By downloading a Bitcoin client and transferring a Bitcoin to your wallet. A Bitcoin is a piece of text. It's a variable for a large equation.
[/quote]

Computers running a node verify transactions. They don't recieve any rewards, except that they can verify their own transactions. You have a half understanding. Some other errors in your post which I won't address here.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote Alexandra

by Alexandra » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:22 am

spitthedog wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:03 am
If Satoshi thinks the same as you, he might as well take the credit for this break through tech that will change the world.

May the real Satoshi please stand up.
He would be kidnapped, tortured and blackmailed in an instant. There is too much money involved.
[quote=spitthedog post_id=1026471 time=1614798227 user_id=37413]
If Satoshi thinks the same as you, he might as well take the credit for this break through tech that will change the world.

May the real Satoshi please stand up.
[/quote]

He would be kidnapped, tortured and blackmailed in an instant. There is too much money involved.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote spitthedog

by spitthedog » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:03 am

starkmonster wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:43 pm
spitthedog wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:38 pm
It's not a real asset. No genuine supply and demand.
No Governments support it.
:banghead: Did you even read my post? The main point was that crypto's are not assets in the traditional sense of the word, they are protocols. Having you understand them and their very abstract future implications, or having governments "recognise" them is not a precursor to entrepreneurs building higher level abstractions in the form of apps, programs and workflows and that innovation triggering a wave of mass consumer adoption by end users of said apps, programs and workflows.

Just as the internet didn't need Joe Blogs to understand TCP/IP, HTTP or layer two standards like HTML/CSS/JavaScipt/XHR. The people that needed to understand them, understood them and got on with building value on top of those standards and protocols, the rest is history.
You say alot whilst saying nothing.

I'll condense it down abit.

"Abstract future and building higher level abstractions"

So alot of ideas without facts then??

That seems similar to what i've been saying all along dude.

If Satoshi thinks the same as you, he might as well take the credit for this break through tech that will change the world.

May the real Satoshi please stand up.
[quote=starkmonster post_id=1026465 time=1614782618 user_id=32942]
[quote=spitthedog post_id=1026459 time=1614778713 user_id=37413]It's not a real asset. No genuine supply and demand.
No Governments support it.
[/quote]

:banghead: Did you even read my post? The main point was that crypto's are not assets in the traditional sense of the word, they are protocols. Having you understand them and their very abstract future implications, or having governments "recognise" them is not a precursor to entrepreneurs building higher level abstractions in the form of apps, programs and workflows and that innovation triggering a wave of mass consumer adoption by end users of said apps, programs and workflows.

Just as the internet didn't need Joe Blogs to understand TCP/IP, HTTP or layer two standards like HTML/CSS/JavaScipt/XHR. The people that needed to understand them, understood them and got on with building value on top of those standards and protocols, the rest is history.
[/quote]

You say alot whilst saying nothing.

I'll condense it down abit.

"Abstract future and building higher level abstractions"

So alot of ideas without facts then??

That seems similar to what i've been saying all along dude.

If Satoshi thinks the same as you, he might as well take the credit for this break through tech that will change the world.

May the real Satoshi please stand up.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote starkmonster

by starkmonster » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:43 pm

spitthedog wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:38 pm
It's not a real asset. No genuine supply and demand.
No Governments support it.
:banghead: Did you even read my post? The main point was that crypto's are not assets in the traditional sense of the word, they are protocols. Having you understand them and their very abstract future implications, or having governments "recognise" them is not a precursor to entrepreneurs building higher level abstractions in the form of apps, programs and workflows and that innovation triggering a wave of mass consumer adoption by end users of said apps, programs and workflows.

Just as the internet didn't need Joe Blogs to understand TCP/IP, HTTP or layer two standards like HTML/CSS/JavaScipt/XHR. The people that needed to understand them, understood them and got on with building value on top of those standards and protocols, the rest is history.
[quote=spitthedog post_id=1026459 time=1614778713 user_id=37413]It's not a real asset. No genuine supply and demand.
No Governments support it.
[/quote]

:banghead: Did you even read my post? The main point was that crypto's are not assets in the traditional sense of the word, they are protocols. Having you understand them and their very abstract future implications, or having governments "recognise" them is not a precursor to entrepreneurs building higher level abstractions in the form of apps, programs and workflows and that innovation triggering a wave of mass consumer adoption by end users of said apps, programs and workflows.

Just as the internet didn't need Joe Blogs to understand TCP/IP, HTTP or layer two standards like HTML/CSS/JavaScipt/XHR. The people that needed to understand them, understood them and got on with building value on top of those standards and protocols, the rest is history.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote spitthedog

by spitthedog » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:38 pm

Starkmonster,

Who or what is this ownership that you speak of?
Most Bitcoins are held by investors who have no intention of offloading them.

People talk about Satoshi like he's a real person rather than a pseudo.
More mystery. Another red flag.

It's not a real asset. No genuine supply and demand.
No Governments support it.
If you wanted a way to launder money you'd make it as complex and opaque as possible, with no one accountable.

Bitcoin transactions are tiny compared to traditional methods.

"The problem is that bitcoin lacks genuine scarcity. Its perceived cap of 21 million tokens exists because of computer code. Last I checked, code can always be erased and rewritten. While it's unlikely that a community consensus would be reached to increase the circulating supply of bitcoin, the possibility of this happening isn't zero"

"When the only parameter of scarcity is written computer code, that's not true scarcity"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.c ... nt-either/
Starkmonster,

Who or what is this ownership that you speak of?
Most Bitcoins are held by investors who have no intention of offloading them.

People talk about Satoshi like he's a real person rather than a pseudo.
More mystery. Another red flag.

It's not a real asset. No genuine supply and demand.
No Governments support it.
If you wanted a way to launder money you'd make it as complex and opaque as possible, with no one accountable.

Bitcoin transactions are tiny compared to traditional methods.

"The problem is that bitcoin lacks genuine scarcity. Its perceived cap of 21 million tokens exists because of computer code. Last I checked, code can always be erased and rewritten. While it's unlikely that a community consensus would be reached to increase the circulating supply of bitcoin, the possibility of this happening isn't zero"

"When the only parameter of scarcity is written computer code, that's not true scarcity"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/2020/12/20/why-i-wont-buy-bitcoin-and-you-shouldnt-either/

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote starkmonster

by starkmonster » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:25 pm

spitthedog, you are missing my point completely. Bitcoin is not a stock in a company that is judged on it's performance in the market place. It is a protocol, all crypto's are protocols, like HTTP or SMTP. They are a standard that defines how one or more devices on a network can communicate and what the rules of that communication are.

Bitcoin IS Sotoshi's whitepaper, as that is the definition of the protocol. Bitcoin is not the miners, investors or the price, it is the protocol. The same as the internet is not Yahoo, Google, the markets or their investors. The internet is HTTP, a protocol created by Tim Berners-Lee, just like Bitcoin. One protocol defines how to transfer information between two untrusted parties, the other defines how to transfer value between two untrusted parties.

The value add and innovation will happen above this base protocol, this is where higher level protocols, frameworks and companies will emerge. The next Google, Facebook or Amazon will emerge out of the wave of innovation that happens above the base protocol.

In the graph I posted above, if we were to compare the maturity of the value layer that currently exists above crypto, to the value layer that existed above HTTP since the birth of the interenet, then I would say that we are in the mid to late 90's.

The price today, tomorrow or yesterday is irreverent. This short term price speculation is not the bet the tech nerds are making (put Elon Musk in that camp). The bet they are making is that the "internet of value" will grow to rival the "internet of information" (what we currently just call the internet) in terms of innovation, traffic and global adoption.

As a thought experiment, imagine if HTTP had 23 million shares. Now imagine that in order for your higher level technology to be trusted and therefore be able to operate in the internet of information you needed to own some of those shares and offer them as security against transactions in your untrusted/unknown protocol, technology, framework or app, you literally can't compete online without them. How much would each of those 23 million shares be worth?

I can't say the number, but I think it's safe to say that the market cap of HTTP in that scenario would be unimaginably high.

HTTP doesn't have ownership, but Bitcoin does. And the bet being made by the people in the tech nerds (the hodlers) is that the internet of value will one day grow to surpass the internet of information in scope, reach and global impact.

The next question is why Bitcoin? Why not alt-coin X, Y or Z. The answer is simple, when it comes to protocols, first mover advantage is everything and once its adoption has reached a tipping point, it can't be caught. Most half decent programmers today could design a protocol for the exchange of information that is superior to HTTP (many have), but they will never gain mass adoption.

HTTP does what it needs to do, facilitate the exchange of information between two untrusted parties. And no protocol however much improved in terms of speed, functionality or ease of use will ever replace it because it's too deeply embedded already, it's lead is simply too great.

Bitcoin does what it needs to do, facilitate the exchange of value between two untrusted parties. And like HTTP its lead is too great, it won't be caught now. It's kinks, quirks and bottlenecks will simply be engineered around at a higher level in the stack.

Trying to explain the potential of the internet of value to most not tech people today, is like taking a time machine back to 1985 and trying to explain in the future there will be this thing called the internet that allows computers in different locations to talk to each other and it will change every imaginable aspect of our lives. Good luck with that.
spitthedog, you are missing my point completely. Bitcoin is not a stock in a company that is judged on it's performance in the market place. It is a protocol, all crypto's are protocols, like HTTP or SMTP. They are a standard that defines how one or more devices on a network can communicate and what the rules of that communication are.

Bitcoin IS Sotoshi's whitepaper, as that is the definition of the protocol. Bitcoin is not the miners, investors or the price, it is the protocol. The same as the internet is not Yahoo, Google, the markets or their investors. The internet is HTTP, a protocol created by Tim Berners-Lee, just like Bitcoin. One protocol defines how to transfer information between two untrusted parties, the other defines how to transfer value between two untrusted parties.

The value add and innovation will happen above this base protocol, this is where higher level protocols, frameworks and companies will emerge. The next Google, Facebook or Amazon will emerge out of the wave of innovation that happens above the base protocol.

In the graph I posted above, if we were to compare the maturity of the value layer that currently exists above crypto, to the value layer that existed above HTTP since the birth of the interenet, then I would say that we are in the mid to late 90's.

The price today, tomorrow or yesterday is irreverent. This short term price speculation is not the bet the tech nerds are making (put Elon Musk in that camp). The bet they are making is that the "internet of value" will grow to rival the "internet of information" (what we currently just call the internet) in terms of innovation, traffic and global adoption.

As a thought experiment, imagine if HTTP had 23 million shares. Now imagine that in order for your higher level technology to be trusted and therefore be able to operate in the internet of information you needed to own some of those shares and offer them as security against transactions in your untrusted/unknown protocol, technology, framework or app, you literally can't compete online without them. How much would each of those 23 million shares be worth?

I can't say the number, but I think it's safe to say that the market cap of HTTP in that scenario would be unimaginably high.

HTTP doesn't have ownership, but Bitcoin does. And the bet being made by the people in the tech nerds (the hodlers) is that the internet of value will one day grow to surpass the internet of information in scope, reach and global impact.

The next question is why Bitcoin? Why not alt-coin X, Y or Z. The answer is simple, when it comes to protocols, first mover advantage is everything and once its adoption has reached a tipping point, it can't be caught. Most half decent programmers today could design a protocol for the exchange of information that is superior to HTTP (many have), but they will never gain mass adoption.

HTTP does what it needs to do, facilitate the exchange of information between two untrusted parties. And no protocol however much improved in terms of speed, functionality or ease of use will ever replace it because it's too deeply embedded already, it's lead is simply too great.

Bitcoin does what it needs to do, facilitate the exchange of value between two untrusted parties. And like HTTP its lead is too great, it won't be caught now. It's kinks, quirks and bottlenecks will simply be engineered around at a higher level in the stack.

Trying to explain the potential of the internet of value to most not tech people today, is like taking a time machine back to 1985 and trying to explain in the future there will be this thing called the internet that allows computers in different locations to talk to each other and it will change every imaginable aspect of our lives. Good luck with that.

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote spitthedog

by spitthedog » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:04 pm

starkmonster wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:19 pm
Find anything in finance that has ever performed like that:


Image
Dude,

Yahoo, the darling of the Dotcom bubble, is basically a perfect example of Bitcoin IMHO.
A rising tide lifts all boats, but some get pumped more than others.
Amazon makes very little profit to market cap.
Yahoo tanked because it was lifted to crazy valuation by the bull market.

In a bear market Bitcoin's price action would be behaving in the same way, just the opposite direction. There would be no need to launder money AFTER the global economy has tanked.

Its a creation for capital flight out of China.

You do believe certain stock prices are supported right?
[quote=starkmonster post_id=1026356 time=1614701940 user_id=32942]
Find anything in finance that has ever performed like that:


[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/dVBDcRgG/3.png[/img][/url]
[/quote]

Dude,

Yahoo, the darling of the Dotcom bubble, is basically a perfect example of Bitcoin IMHO.
A rising tide lifts all boats, but some get pumped more than others.
Amazon makes very little profit to market cap.
Yahoo tanked because it was lifted to crazy valuation by the bull market.

In a bear market Bitcoin's price action would be behaving in the same way, just the opposite direction. There would be no need to launder money AFTER the global economy has tanked.

Its a creation for capital flight out of China.

You do believe certain stock prices are supported right?

Re: Bitcoins worth more than gold

  • Quote logos

by logos » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:54 am

Alexandra wrote:It is not possible because there is nothing to hack. It is like saying imagine if electricity was hacked.
Of course you can hack electricity.
Khmers do it every day :D
[quote="Alexandra"]It is not possible because there is nothing to hack. It is like saying imagine if electricity was hacked.[/quote]
Of course you can hack electricity.
Khmers do it every day :D

Bitcoins worth more than gold - Page 29

  • Quote $¥

by $¥ » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:18 am

When all is said and done, private keys, public keys, mining, wallets, verifications, blah blah blah, bitcoin is a password.
When all is said and done, private keys, public keys, mining, wallets, verifications, blah blah blah, bitcoin is a password.

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