10 years ago
- hanky
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I'm with Willie on this too. It was one of the most shocking news stories in recent times. I'd been up the towers for the first time not long before and couldn't believe such huge structures were taken out so quickly. I'm not sure how anyone can condone or belittle the mass murder of civilians.
Who Gives a Fuck?
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A joint UK-US operation, although ultimately led by Churchill. This is an interesting case- there was certainly was an element of terror involved, an attempt to sap morale. There was also serious unease in the UK following the attack surrounding this motive. The atomic attacks on Japan may well have had a terror element to them as well- but lets not forget how many lives would have been lost (on both sides) in a conventional assault on Japan if they hadn't been used. The big difference is that the countries involved were involved in a total war at the time.tuk-tukfish wrote: The fire bombing of Dresden was a class act as well.
There is no doubt that every state or people indulges in doublethink at some point- whether it be the UK or US, supporting the brutal regime in Saudi Arabia while also supporting rebels in Libya, or even Israel conveniently forgetting the Irgun attacks which led to the formation of Israel when condemning Palestinian terrorism.
The problem here is that the people killed in all of these tragedies are the victims- not the political establishments of the countries involved. Do you think the people who cleaned the toilets in the restaurant at the top deserved to die for US foreign policy errors? There is a lot in the world that is wrong, but it doesn't get better the more you celebrate the deaths of the innocent. Save the schadenfreude for today- if you want to remember the victims of other tragedies as well feel free.
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Dresden was major railway intersection so soldiers could not be moved from the East to fight the UK/US on the West and then there were the factories. Else first paragraph spot on.barangdave wrote:A joint UK-US operation, although ultimately led by Churchill. This is an interesting case- there was certainly was an element of terror involved, an attempt to sap morale. There was also serious unease in the UK following the attack surrounding this motive. The atomic attacks on Japan may well have had a terror element to them as well- but lets not forget how many lives would have been lost (on both sides) in a conventional assault on Japan if they hadn't been used. The big difference is that the countries involved were involved in a total war at the time.tuk-tukfish wrote: The fire bombing of Dresden was a class act as well.
There is no doubt that every state or people indulges in doublethink at some point- whether it be the UK or US, supporting the brutal regime in Saudi Arabia while also supporting rebels in Libya, or even Israel conveniently forgetting the Irgun attacks which led to the formation of Israel when condemning Palestinian terrorism.
The problem here is that the people killed in all of these tragedies are the victims- not the political establishments of the countries involved. Do you think the people who cleaned the toilets in the restaurant at the top deserved to die for US foreign policy errors? There is a lot in the world that is wrong, but it doesn't get better the more you celebrate the deaths of the innocent. Save the schadenfreude for today- if you want to remember the victims of other tragedies as well feel free.
Yeah the cleaners, the guards, the cooks, the firemen, the secretaries etc who were major Wall Street players. That's who they were helping.tuk-tukfish wrote:I was 12 at the time of these attacks and remember a day later a couple of girls in my class decided to make a bake sale "to help the poor wallstreet families that were effected". The result was that the entire grade was forced to make fucking cupcakes, failure to do so would result in punishment. My mother told me that she would not make a cake as she believed the chickens had come home to roost in many aspects. I was given detention and was chastised for being so uncaring.
I'm not anti US, but i'll never shed a single tear for 11/9/2001 victims. And I CERTAINLY will not call it 9/11. C'mon guys it's illogical.
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- Raskolnikov
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Israeli's and Palestinians alike both live in real fear of attacks on a daily basis, be they "terrorist" or state sponsored attacks and they have done for years. Most countries don't go to war with entire nations over a single terrorist attack by one of its citizens. (OBL wasnt an Afgan or Iraqi either BTW)Khmeria wrote:Israel doesn't make a fuss about muslim terrorism? Did you miss the war in Lebanon? The assassinations of Hamas leaders? The gigantic wall they built to keep the Palestinians out?Raskolnikov wrote:Always amazes me how big a deal the US make about this incident. People around the world live with the real threat of terrorism, Israel for example, and dont make as big a fuss, they just get on with life.
Goofy comment. As if people from halfway around the world fly planes into the biggest buildings in NYC and everyone should just go about their day like nothing happened.
Point being, in many parts of the world terrorism is a fact of life, something that occurs on a regular basis.In many countries terrorist attacks/war/coups are direct results of US foreign policy, yet US citizens are shocked when things that only happen in faraway lands to ragheads and gooks actually occur on their soil?
That was the real world knocking on the door right there, the real reality of bombs and blood and destruction, not a glamourised, gung-ho Hollywood action movie version. It should have awoken your indoctrinated citizens from their arrogant complacency but apparently it didn't, it just strengthened your resolve that you are righteous in your actions.
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- hanky
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Yeah, in Pakistan and Afghanistan and other enlightened areas like that.Raskolnikov wrote: Point being, in many parts of the world terrorism is a fact of life, something that occurs on a regular basis.
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- Raskolnikov
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The US acts in the interest of the US, there is always an ulterior motive. They've "helped" many countries by overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with murderous dictators, or by supporting anyone who is the enemy of their current ideological bogeyman. Osama Bin Laden to name one. And, lo and behold, look how that turned out-funny that.Khmeria wrote:Raskolnikov wrote:I'm not denying that the US has done some shady things with its military, but many times it also does act in defense of smaller nations/people being bullied. Kuwait, Kosovo, Libya, etc. Sure there are at times ulterior motives, but claiming the US is always a bully isn't supported by recent history.The US gets attacked by terrorists once in it's history and act like its the end of the world. They act like it was completely out of the blue and unjustified. Go around the world acting like a bully with your military might and sooner or later the kid youre bullying might just hit back.
What recent history books are you reading? US written ones I'd say. For any of your countries you mention I could raise you five that the US has interfered in and caused bloodshed directly or indirectly. The damage they have done far outweighs the good.
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Yeah, and that has got nothing to do with the US at all has it?hanky wrote:Yeah, in Pakistan and Afghanistan and other enlightened areas like that.Raskolnikov wrote: Point being, in many parts of the world terrorism is a fact of life, something that occurs on a regular basis.
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I'm not actually saying the US "deserved it" as such, just that I dont feel much sympathy for the country as a whole, while I have every sympathy for the victims. The same would go for my country, we have provoked this response* by the actions of our government and military, the chickens came home to roost. Just like they did for 30 years of IRA bombings. Thats world politics, thats real life, deal with it.Khmeria wrote:Indeed quite strange that you never hear anyone saying London deserved it. Or Madrid. Or Bali. Or Casablanca.
Also no self-reflection or analysis on the root causes. Maybe it's not allowed there too?
*Sorry, referring to the attacks on the 7th of July 2005 in London
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I wasn't clear there, there was an element of terror, but I agree the place can also be considered a legitimate target for strategic reasons.Uncle Monty wrote:Dresden was major railway intersection so soldiers could not be moved from the East to fight the UK/US on the West and then there were the factories. Else first paragraph spot on.
I'll share my personal story as brief as I can, as an American and as a New Yorker who was in Manhattan on that day 10 years ago.
I had just turned 14 years old and was starting one of my first days of high school on the upper west side of NYC. I was living in Brooklyn with my parents but went to a private school in Manhattan so I took the subway every weekday. At around 8:45 the assistant principle came on the loud speaker and said there had been an accident by World Trade Center. An explosion of some sort. If you had heard of the words "Osama bin Laden" or "al Qaeda" before, they certainly weren't common, everyday words. A few minutes later (I recall being in a computer lab), there was another announcement that a plane had flown into the second tower.
I had just gotten my very first cell phone for my birthday, so I called my mom and got a voicemail. Rumors and innuendo began changing every few minutes. I didn't know what to do but school wasn't cancelled so I just kept going to class. Police and fire truck sirens were nonstop. At one point around 2PM, a friend of mine told me that one of the towers collapsed. I thought how asinine that was. We're talking about the Twin Towers here, I said. They can't collapse.
I ran down the subway terminal at 125th St uptown. The subway service had just been cancelled. I started to panic; how would I get home? I was 14 years old, I had no money for a taxi and I lived in Brooklyn. I had no idea what bus(es) to take even if I could find one. I was alone and began walking downtown. I walked for about an hour until I got to Columbus Circle (59th St/7th Ave) where I first started to see smoke. I cut through Central Park until I go find a clear view of the downtown skyline. That's when I saw a vision that I will never forget. One of the towers was gone. Tower 1 was lit up like a gigantic cigar stretching into the sky.
There were a lot of people standing with me in the park looking up at what could only be described as a scene for an apocalypse movie. I remember feeling so helpless and needing to talk to someone I knew. I was just a kid, really, and scared out of my mind. I pulled out my phone only to discover that the battery was dead. I remember thinking it was strange why my parents or brother hadn't called to see where I was.
I ran across the rest of the park to the east side and continued to sprint all the way to 1st Ave. I jetted further south towards the heart of the destruction with the thought in mind that if I could make it to Delancey St., I could simply walk across the Williamsburg Bridge into Brooklyn. It was about 8PM by the time I reached where I needed to be. It was perhaps a 15 walk to World Trade Center from where I was. If I could picture a scene from Dante's Inferno, that would be an apt description for what I was witnessing. Downtown NYC was pure pandemonium. There was dust everywhere. On the ground, in the air, in the trees, covering people. One of the things I remember so vividly was how many pieces of paper were littered everywhere. I picked up a charred piece of paper at one point and it was a spreadsheet from some business. I remember thinking that at around 8:30AM, that piece of paper had been on the desk of some CEO or something on the 100th floor or wherever of some company located in the towers.
As I rushed through the collection of chaos which was emergency responders, racing into the burning remnants of what remained of Tower 1, and people either trying to flee the scene or coming onto the scene to look for friends and family members, I eventually made my way to the Williamsburg Bridge. A lot of people had the same idea as me, since mass transit was shut down. We began the walk over the bridge. I looked back over my shoulder about halfway across and that's when Tower 1 started to come down. We began to run across and all I could think about was how I kept seeing firefighters running INTO the building as it was coming down on what clearly was a one way trip to death for the lot of them. Such an act of bravery in the face of sure death will never be forgotten by me.
Once I was in Williamsburg I ran into a friend of my uncle's and asked if he could give me a ride in his car to my house in Bensonhurst. He said he was going towards Marine Park, where my uncle lived, and I asked if he could just drive me there instead. Once there, my aunt and uncle ushered me into their home and helped me get washed up -- I hadn't realized just how dirty I had become during my sojourn through downtown. I was able to contact my parents and my dad said he would pick me as fast as he could get there. My aunt and uncle and I were watching the news of the disaster and it was only then that the full extent of the carnage was made aware to me. The attack at the Pentagon, the crash of another plane in Pennsylvania. I stood in their living room and for the first time that day, I cried. I cried at what I perceived at the loss of innocence; not just the lives of the victims who had committed no crimes, but the innocence of the USA.
Over the next few years, as I began to express myself more politically, I came to understand that my country was not so innocent at all. When the USA was founded, there was a strong sense of neutrality, or isolationism which was espoused by the fathers of the country. This began to change in the 20th century, hitting a high point during the Cold War era. The US was responsible for backing some brutal regimes throughout the world everywhere from Latin America, to Africa, to Southeast Asia.
But I think jm summed it up best earlier when he said "One can be critical of governments while still feeling compassion for the families wherever they are. Compassion does not equal ignorance." How true. The USA isn't perfect, I'll be the first to admit it as an American. But what happened on 9/11/01 was criminal and it is a shame that such an event was used as an excuse for a bunch of modern day imperialists to set about conquering the political world the way they saw fit. Irrespective of that, the events of 9/11 need to be remembered and reflected on solemnly. There's no other way about it.
I had just turned 14 years old and was starting one of my first days of high school on the upper west side of NYC. I was living in Brooklyn with my parents but went to a private school in Manhattan so I took the subway every weekday. At around 8:45 the assistant principle came on the loud speaker and said there had been an accident by World Trade Center. An explosion of some sort. If you had heard of the words "Osama bin Laden" or "al Qaeda" before, they certainly weren't common, everyday words. A few minutes later (I recall being in a computer lab), there was another announcement that a plane had flown into the second tower.
I had just gotten my very first cell phone for my birthday, so I called my mom and got a voicemail. Rumors and innuendo began changing every few minutes. I didn't know what to do but school wasn't cancelled so I just kept going to class. Police and fire truck sirens were nonstop. At one point around 2PM, a friend of mine told me that one of the towers collapsed. I thought how asinine that was. We're talking about the Twin Towers here, I said. They can't collapse.
I ran down the subway terminal at 125th St uptown. The subway service had just been cancelled. I started to panic; how would I get home? I was 14 years old, I had no money for a taxi and I lived in Brooklyn. I had no idea what bus(es) to take even if I could find one. I was alone and began walking downtown. I walked for about an hour until I got to Columbus Circle (59th St/7th Ave) where I first started to see smoke. I cut through Central Park until I go find a clear view of the downtown skyline. That's when I saw a vision that I will never forget. One of the towers was gone. Tower 1 was lit up like a gigantic cigar stretching into the sky.
There were a lot of people standing with me in the park looking up at what could only be described as a scene for an apocalypse movie. I remember feeling so helpless and needing to talk to someone I knew. I was just a kid, really, and scared out of my mind. I pulled out my phone only to discover that the battery was dead. I remember thinking it was strange why my parents or brother hadn't called to see where I was.
I ran across the rest of the park to the east side and continued to sprint all the way to 1st Ave. I jetted further south towards the heart of the destruction with the thought in mind that if I could make it to Delancey St., I could simply walk across the Williamsburg Bridge into Brooklyn. It was about 8PM by the time I reached where I needed to be. It was perhaps a 15 walk to World Trade Center from where I was. If I could picture a scene from Dante's Inferno, that would be an apt description for what I was witnessing. Downtown NYC was pure pandemonium. There was dust everywhere. On the ground, in the air, in the trees, covering people. One of the things I remember so vividly was how many pieces of paper were littered everywhere. I picked up a charred piece of paper at one point and it was a spreadsheet from some business. I remember thinking that at around 8:30AM, that piece of paper had been on the desk of some CEO or something on the 100th floor or wherever of some company located in the towers.
As I rushed through the collection of chaos which was emergency responders, racing into the burning remnants of what remained of Tower 1, and people either trying to flee the scene or coming onto the scene to look for friends and family members, I eventually made my way to the Williamsburg Bridge. A lot of people had the same idea as me, since mass transit was shut down. We began the walk over the bridge. I looked back over my shoulder about halfway across and that's when Tower 1 started to come down. We began to run across and all I could think about was how I kept seeing firefighters running INTO the building as it was coming down on what clearly was a one way trip to death for the lot of them. Such an act of bravery in the face of sure death will never be forgotten by me.
Once I was in Williamsburg I ran into a friend of my uncle's and asked if he could give me a ride in his car to my house in Bensonhurst. He said he was going towards Marine Park, where my uncle lived, and I asked if he could just drive me there instead. Once there, my aunt and uncle ushered me into their home and helped me get washed up -- I hadn't realized just how dirty I had become during my sojourn through downtown. I was able to contact my parents and my dad said he would pick me as fast as he could get there. My aunt and uncle and I were watching the news of the disaster and it was only then that the full extent of the carnage was made aware to me. The attack at the Pentagon, the crash of another plane in Pennsylvania. I stood in their living room and for the first time that day, I cried. I cried at what I perceived at the loss of innocence; not just the lives of the victims who had committed no crimes, but the innocence of the USA.
Over the next few years, as I began to express myself more politically, I came to understand that my country was not so innocent at all. When the USA was founded, there was a strong sense of neutrality, or isolationism which was espoused by the fathers of the country. This began to change in the 20th century, hitting a high point during the Cold War era. The US was responsible for backing some brutal regimes throughout the world everywhere from Latin America, to Africa, to Southeast Asia.
But I think jm summed it up best earlier when he said "One can be critical of governments while still feeling compassion for the families wherever they are. Compassion does not equal ignorance." How true. The USA isn't perfect, I'll be the first to admit it as an American. But what happened on 9/11/01 was criminal and it is a shame that such an event was used as an excuse for a bunch of modern day imperialists to set about conquering the political world the way they saw fit. Irrespective of that, the events of 9/11 need to be remembered and reflected on solemnly. There's no other way about it.
Cantankerous Curmudgeon
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Thats one hell of a post Peca.
I still remember we had an emergency assembly on that day showing our condolence. When our principal said there has been terrorist attacks in America , the 1st thing came to mind was bad guys dressing in guerrilla outfits placing a c4 to wins mission like Half-Life FPS game until I saw it on the news later that day.
I still remember we had an emergency assembly on that day showing our condolence. When our principal said there has been terrorist attacks in America , the 1st thing came to mind was bad guys dressing in guerrilla outfits placing a c4 to wins mission like Half-Life FPS game until I saw it on the news later that day.
Everyone bow down and pay extreme homage to his Majesty flying chicken.
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