I will just throw this one in the air for any input.
I will just throw this one in the air for any input.
I rented a business for 10 years, and had problems with the owner who would not make contractual repairs to the building (was not small money or small things). We held the rent back for 2 months to force her hand, and went to pay on the 3rd month (the contract allowed for a late payment without cancellation of max three months). She refused to accept the rent, and got a court order to throw us off the property- all against the law and contract. The latest I have heard is that she will be suing us for having damaged her property- which is now a criminal offence and not civil. We are of course fighting the civil cases on appeal (unlawful eviction, damages for loss of business etc, which could take years.
We've invested 57000 in the business. Have been thrown off illegally and against all laws and contract, just 6 months into the contract. Have never damaged her property- actually have made very many improvements along the way which she by contract was contracted to pay for.
What concerns me is having a criminal case against me, which we are innocent for, but live in a country with a very weird court system, and a case that the owner has an open check book to sue me for, bearing in mind the more she sues me for, then the more she can offer to win any case.
Question if I loose the case for having damaged her property, and don't pay some astronomical trumped up amount :
Is it a case that one could end in prison, be thrown out of the country or just hounded for years to pay the amount.
Does anyone have any experience either first or third hand of this type of case?
PS My experience so far is that even if you are protected by law, a barang will never win against a Khmer. Of course, unscrupulous landlords are a small percentage in relation to good, but investing in a business, land or anything else in this country, you are completely open to be defrauded, even if you have the law on your side-my advice is don't invest any amount unless you can afford to loose it.
Luckily, we have a second very profitable business in it's 5th year of operation, and with an extremely understanding and co-operative landlord
Thanks.
PS I have a Khmer wife and daughter, and my wife is naturally concerned for our well-being.
We've invested 57000 in the business. Have been thrown off illegally and against all laws and contract, just 6 months into the contract. Have never damaged her property- actually have made very many improvements along the way which she by contract was contracted to pay for.
What concerns me is having a criminal case against me, which we are innocent for, but live in a country with a very weird court system, and a case that the owner has an open check book to sue me for, bearing in mind the more she sues me for, then the more she can offer to win any case.
Question if I loose the case for having damaged her property, and don't pay some astronomical trumped up amount :
Is it a case that one could end in prison, be thrown out of the country or just hounded for years to pay the amount.
Does anyone have any experience either first or third hand of this type of case?
PS My experience so far is that even if you are protected by law, a barang will never win against a Khmer. Of course, unscrupulous landlords are a small percentage in relation to good, but investing in a business, land or anything else in this country, you are completely open to be defrauded, even if you have the law on your side-my advice is don't invest any amount unless you can afford to loose it.
Luckily, we have a second very profitable business in it's 5th year of operation, and with an extremely understanding and co-operative landlord
Thanks.
PS I have a Khmer wife and daughter, and my wife is naturally concerned for our well-being.
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Wasn't the Khmer partner in a well-known bar on street 136 thrown into jail for a substantial period of time, for modifying, and thus "damaging", the rented building in which the bar was located? I'm probably be way off on this, but I recall at least a credible threat of a lengthy jail sentence, probably being wielded by the LL as a form of leverage against the tenant.
I wouldn't want to end up in a Cambodian courtroom, over anything. It's a wonder that multinational corporations are even locating in Cambodia, what with the pathetic state of the judicial system. How can you enforce the terms of a contract without resorting to bribery in the courtrooms? Most multinationals have strict rules regarding this, but I imagine having a Khmer partner who owns a piece of the government might be one way around this.
I wouldn't want to end up in a Cambodian courtroom, over anything. It's a wonder that multinational corporations are even locating in Cambodia, what with the pathetic state of the judicial system. How can you enforce the terms of a contract without resorting to bribery in the courtrooms? Most multinationals have strict rules regarding this, but I imagine having a Khmer partner who owns a piece of the government might be one way around this.
Last edited by Walter White on Thu May 29, 2014 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's like, your opinion, man.
It is down to who pays the most in bribes- first hand experience now shows me this. Even with the law fully with you, it is actually quite useless in practice if someone wants to eat you alive.
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Walter White wrote:Wasn't the Khmer partner in a well-known bar on street 136 thrown into jail for a substantial period of time, for modifying, and thus "damaging", the rented building in which the bar was located? I might be way off on this, but I'm pretty sure there was at least a credible threat of a lengthy jail sentence, probably being wielded by the LL as a form of leverage against the tenant.
You might be thinking of a well-known bar in a street near 136 and events about 5 years ago. The partner did indeed spend some time in jail and had to have her family flog off considerable family silver to get her out. As you say, this person is Khmer; in short, with the rule of law being what it is, if the owner is connected, she has you over a barrel.
I came, I argued, I'm out
6 months into the contract? I'm assuming then that she was your landlord for the previous 10 years and that it was a new contract for the same premises?
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
OP, I empathize with you. Having judicial trouble and even criminal charges really blows.
I don't have any hand-on experience with the judicial system. I would assume that your way out could be to have business connections who have Cambodian connections in some of the highest spheres of the government, who would then instruct the court to judge in accordance to the law (yeah... that's how ludicrous it is).
Best of luck to you.
I don't have any hand-on experience with the judicial system. I would assume that your way out could be to have business connections who have Cambodian connections in some of the highest spheres of the government, who would then instruct the court to judge in accordance to the law (yeah... that's how ludicrous it is).
Best of luck to you.
It was a 10 year contract of which only 6 months had expired.
I'm curious also, what were the repairs the building needed? I've been unable to find a definitive list of things landlords must take care of.
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
The contract specified that the landlord's responsibility was to maintain all parts of the property so that we are able to carry out our hotel business, including walls, ceilings, floors, roof, electricity, plumbing, water, and sewerage.
This was to safeguard us against renting a dodgy building and not being able to do business.
To name one item- the roof leaked in rain flooding the top floor 3 rooms, which then seeped through to the ground floor rooms. This is major and not small fry. The problem is that she saved money on the roof tiles when building, and the tiles are spaced too far apart to seal the building against rain water getting in.
This was to safeguard us against renting a dodgy building and not being able to do business.
To name one item- the roof leaked in rain flooding the top floor 3 rooms, which then seeped through to the ground floor rooms. This is major and not small fry. The problem is that she saved money on the roof tiles when building, and the tiles are spaced too far apart to seal the building against rain water getting in.
Just to add further to my earlier reply MoodyMac- there is no definitive list available of a landlord's responsibility. It is what is specified in the contract and agreed by both parties and witnessed independently.
DT,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Any time you sign a lease for a business here you are somewhat rolling the dice. I think you need to get a good lawyer asap. I really hope things work out okay.
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Any time you sign a lease for a business here you are somewhat rolling the dice. I think you need to get a good lawyer asap. I really hope things work out okay.
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So you rented a building with a bad roof and you expect the landlord to replace it ? Sounds to me like you didn't do your homework ahead of time. I would think your agreement would allow for the maintenance of the property and not for improvements.
They will only hold you in prison until you pay up and in the west that would be until the whole 10 year rental amount plus court and lawyer costs are paid.
They will only hold you in prison until you pay up and in the west that would be until the whole 10 year rental amount plus court and lawyer costs are paid.
i'm the one who has to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way i want to
Come on Larry dont be a wanker.
The only way the OP would know the roof was leaking is if they visited during a rain storm. I would wage a bet that the owner conducted all meetings on bone dry days and made no mention of the faulty roof.
IMO the OP has two choices ;
LAWYER UP heavily. This may well have the desired effect as the owner may be all huff and puff and the hint you are going to fight might cause a back down. I would go Sciarroni. Pay the money. Jail ain't no fun.
If it has not gone too far ( though sounds like it has ) go back the owner WITH AN IMPARTIAL MEDIATOR ( NOT your wife ) and grovel and tell them you will pay for half the cost of the roof repair assuming it is a only a few thousand. Maybe try wangle a couple of extra years on the lease in return. This may even involve a meeting with the Sangkat etc.
I am very sorry to hear about your experience and hope it turns out. Please keep us informed, It will be a good example for future business owners who intend on investing large amounts of hard earned.
The only way the OP would know the roof was leaking is if they visited during a rain storm. I would wage a bet that the owner conducted all meetings on bone dry days and made no mention of the faulty roof.
IMO the OP has two choices ;
LAWYER UP heavily. This may well have the desired effect as the owner may be all huff and puff and the hint you are going to fight might cause a back down. I would go Sciarroni. Pay the money. Jail ain't no fun.
If it has not gone too far ( though sounds like it has ) go back the owner WITH AN IMPARTIAL MEDIATOR ( NOT your wife ) and grovel and tell them you will pay for half the cost of the roof repair assuming it is a only a few thousand. Maybe try wangle a couple of extra years on the lease in return. This may even involve a meeting with the Sangkat etc.
I am very sorry to hear about your experience and hope it turns out. Please keep us informed, It will be a good example for future business owners who intend on investing large amounts of hard earned.
Rated R for Ricecakes
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I agree it's harsh, and it's not my wish for the OP, but if the roof was not correct and leaked from onset then there would have been signs of the leaking.
i'm the one who has to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way i want to