I don't think there can be much honing when the simple term 'responsibility' is not defined.
There are 2 issues here: the first is the deliberate obfuscation of meaning to create wiggle-room in legal documents, the second is the maintenance of an upper-caste Khmer language to define status.
An idiot can see what the intention is, and would also know that 'honing' would probably cost him his job.
I was referring more to the 'high Khmer' lingo, Joon, and its exclusionary characteristics. A device to maintain status?
Seng Theary desperately trying to be relevant again
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The Shallows by Nicholas Carr. I have a copy on my computer but it refuses to load/ open.alanclarke72 wrote:Do you have a source for that? I looked but couldn't find one. Latin might have been written like that for quite a while, but given the earliest examples of written English are from around the time you mention and certainly have clear words and punctuation, I'm surprised by your assertion.
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Spoken Khmer doesn't have high lingo, it used to before the war, but it doesn't anymore apart from very isolated pockets. Now everyone from the Prime Minister down to the tuk-tuk drivers speak in pretty much the same way, it's very colloquial.vladimir wrote:I don't think there can be much honing when the simple term 'responsibility' is not defined.
There are 2 issues here: the first is the deliberate obfuscation of meaning to create wiggle-room in legal documents, the second is the maintenance of an upper-caste Khmer language to define status.
An idiot can see what the intention is, and would also know that 'honing' would probably cost him his job.
I was referring more to the 'high Khmer' lingo, Joon, and its exclusionary characteristics. A device to maintain status?
Written Khmer is much more formal than spoken Khmer, even more so than English, so they tend to lay it on a little think, but all Cambodians know those more formal pronouns and verbs.
I only have firsthand knowledge of the drafting, enacting and implementation of the Tourism Law in Cambodia. I know that the law was originally drafted in English and then translated to Khmer. It reads clearly in English but I have been told by several sources that it is difficult to decipher ande doesn't make a lot of sense in Khmer.vladimir wrote:Is the present format not being deliberately preserved precisely because it IS difficult for peasants to understand?
In the same way as the church held services in Latin for so long?
Look at any new law, the terms are deliberately vague (for example, work permits, the law states that the employer is 'responsible', but does not specify whether this is an administrative or financial responsibility)
One more way of holding on/ showing one's status.
So my point is that any vagueness may have come from a number of sources. I assume the work permit laws, like the tourism laws, were funded by an international donor who contracted an international expert consultant for the job and then gave them to the ministry to be translated.
My point from earlier in the thread was specifically lower level communications that I know have been drafted in-house at the provincial department or ministry level and why they should be so difficult for educated Khmer to decipher?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
― Christopher Hitchens
Not an expert (although I did learn the alphabet a long time ago) but I've always thought that Khmer is just a very simple and imprecise language.
A few times, when driving and a bit lost, we have stopped for my wife to ask a local for directions. After two or three minutes of conversion and gesticulation we set off again. When I ask my wife what was said, it's always something very simple like ' turn left at the gas station and it's 100 metres on the right'. Something that would have taken a few seconds in English.
Khmer is a great language for having fun, sitting around with a few beers taking the piss out of each other etc. But it certainly has its limitations. Most of our Khmer customers always seem to want to do business in English these days.
A few times, when driving and a bit lost, we have stopped for my wife to ask a local for directions. After two or three minutes of conversion and gesticulation we set off again. When I ask my wife what was said, it's always something very simple like ' turn left at the gas station and it's 100 metres on the right'. Something that would have taken a few seconds in English.
Khmer is a great language for having fun, sitting around with a few beers taking the piss out of each other etc. But it certainly has its limitations. Most of our Khmer customers always seem to want to do business in English these days.
TheGrimReaper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:45 pmSlavedog, you do not belong on this forum as you talk too much sense.
I made no point about illiteracy? The people I referred to are literate. Nice bit of class shaming: if the working class have problems with the linguistic system it not the systems fault it is the illiterate lazy working class to blame.Joon wrote:TJP, your point about illiteracy is moot as illiteracy in any language is a problem for the people who can't read or write anyway... And the reading and writing books in Khmer is not a language issue, it's a people issue.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
― Christopher Hitchens
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I feel for you TJP777. What country in their right mind drafts their laws in a foreign language and then translates them into their own? NGO's + RGC = Complete Fuck Up Every Single TimeTJP777 wrote:I only have firsthand knowledge of the drafting, enacting and implementation of the Tourism Law in Cambodia. I know that the law was originally drafted in English and then translated to Khmer. It reads clearly in English but I have been told by several sources that it is difficult to decipher ande doesn't make a lot of sense in Khmer.
So my point is that any vagueness may have come from a number of sources. I assume the work permit laws, like the tourism laws, were funded by an international donor who contracted an international expert consultant for the job and then gave them to the ministry to be translated.
It's almost impossible to translate with 100% accuracy the complexities of legal jargon between two languages that are so far apart. It's just madness to think it could be done, the law should be written in Khmer, then the meaning should be interpreted into English to be used as a rough reference. Khmer doesn't map 1 to 1 into English, it's not even close. Whenever I translate Khmer into English or vice versa I never translate literally. I always just hear the whole sentence and then try to communicate the intended meaning as often the way of getting there is completely different.
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.pdf works:ali baba wrote:The Shallows by Nicholas Carr. I have a copy on my computer but it refuses to load/ open.alanclarke72 wrote:Do you have a source for that? I looked but couldn't find one. Latin might have been written like that for quite a while, but given the earliest examples of written English are from around the time you mention and certainly have clear words and punctuation, I'm surprised by your assertion.
https://www.google.com.kh/?gws_rd=cr,ss ... f+download
https://www.google.com.kh/url?sa=t&rct= ... nnAxDNO2vQ
TJP777, thanks, interesting. It would be interesting to compare how older laws were promulgated/translated, ie those written before the French arrived.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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The Cambodian government has rejected a request from 18 US senators urging the release of the American-Khmer lawyer Theary Seng, 52, who is serving a six year sentence for treason linked to an alleged 2019 plot to overthrow then prime minister Hun Sen.
The rejection followed a letter sent to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken urging him to prioritize her release and they want Theary Seng’s detention designated under the Hostage-Taking Accountability Act.
“The US senators have the right to request but Cambodia has its own constitution and laws,” Chin Malin, spokesman for the Ministry of Justice, said in a report by the pro-government Khmer Times.
40 years
“They just keep on demanding again and again. There are no political prisoners in Cambodia but there are only politicians who are guilty of committing crimes. We do everything in accordance with the national laws and abide by the constitution.”
Human rights groups say Cambodia is currently holding about 60 political prisoners after a crackdown on dissent enabled Hun Sen to retain near absolute control of the National Assembly at elections in July and transfer power to his eldest son Hun Manet a month later.
“Based on the Cambodian Constitution, the government does not have any right to interfere in court proceedings and demand the release of a prisoner, convict or any suspect facing legal procedures,” Chin Malin said.
“Theary can defend herself in accordance with laws for the charges against her to be dropped and get an acquittal,” he added.
Theary Seng’s appeal was to be heard alongside 16 former leaders and supporters of the outlawed Cambodia National Rescue Party (CNRP) last week, but Presiding Judge Yun Narong postponed the hearing after she staged a hunger strike and was hospitalized.
A family source said three days into her 10 day hunger strike, her heart rate dropped dramatically and she was secretly taken to hospital to be monitored where her heart beat normalized back to mid 60 beats a minute and she was returned to her cell.
“She was visited by family at prison, emaciated but in high spirits and more resolved. We are praising God for giving her strength and calling him the “Great Physician” for taking away her hunger pains and headaches,” he said.
He said Theary Seng “wants to remind US policy makers to keep Cambodian issues and all political prisoners like her in mind as the US Senate appropriations bill is in committee” where Cambodian officials face possible sanctions.
The Khmer Times also quoted Lt. Gen. Nuth Savna, spokesman of the General Department of Prisons as saying: “Although Theary is a Cambodian-American citizen, for us, she is one among us, a Cambodian national. She was imprisoned in accordance with the court’s judgement.”
https://www.ucanews.com/news/cambodia-r ... tor/103638
The rejection followed a letter sent to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken urging him to prioritize her release and they want Theary Seng’s detention designated under the Hostage-Taking Accountability Act.
“The US senators have the right to request but Cambodia has its own constitution and laws,” Chin Malin, spokesman for the Ministry of Justice, said in a report by the pro-government Khmer Times.
40 years
“They just keep on demanding again and again. There are no political prisoners in Cambodia but there are only politicians who are guilty of committing crimes. We do everything in accordance with the national laws and abide by the constitution.”
Human rights groups say Cambodia is currently holding about 60 political prisoners after a crackdown on dissent enabled Hun Sen to retain near absolute control of the National Assembly at elections in July and transfer power to his eldest son Hun Manet a month later.
“Based on the Cambodian Constitution, the government does not have any right to interfere in court proceedings and demand the release of a prisoner, convict or any suspect facing legal procedures,” Chin Malin said.
“Theary can defend herself in accordance with laws for the charges against her to be dropped and get an acquittal,” he added.
Theary Seng’s appeal was to be heard alongside 16 former leaders and supporters of the outlawed Cambodia National Rescue Party (CNRP) last week, but Presiding Judge Yun Narong postponed the hearing after she staged a hunger strike and was hospitalized.
A family source said three days into her 10 day hunger strike, her heart rate dropped dramatically and she was secretly taken to hospital to be monitored where her heart beat normalized back to mid 60 beats a minute and she was returned to her cell.
“She was visited by family at prison, emaciated but in high spirits and more resolved. We are praising God for giving her strength and calling him the “Great Physician” for taking away her hunger pains and headaches,” he said.
He said Theary Seng “wants to remind US policy makers to keep Cambodian issues and all political prisoners like her in mind as the US Senate appropriations bill is in committee” where Cambodian officials face possible sanctions.
The Khmer Times also quoted Lt. Gen. Nuth Savna, spokesman of the General Department of Prisons as saying: “Although Theary is a Cambodian-American citizen, for us, she is one among us, a Cambodian national. She was imprisoned in accordance with the court’s judgement.”
https://www.ucanews.com/news/cambodia-r ... tor/103638
Bringing the news. You stay classy, nas, Cambodia.
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The "Latin" alphabet has considerably more than five vowel sounds obviously. There is no reason Khmer couldn't be Romanized IMHO, with each of the 30 vowel sounds being constructed by combinations of Roman vowels or with diacritics, etc as in Vietnamese and many other languages around the world. Commas and spaces would be weird (again IMHO) and not sure what the fuss is about. It is fairly clear when words end and begin and to my knowledge there's only a few problem words or word types where it's an issue, and definitely not for native readers (which I am not).PJC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:42 pmKhmer has 30 vowel sounds according to this:
http://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?t=27640
which would rule out using the Latin alphabet with 5 vowel signs (it's not much good for English either, for that matter, though presumably it was fine for Latin).
It would certainly be an improvement if words could have gaps between them and sentences could end with full stops. Commas would be nice too. I wonder whose job/authority it would be to do this? Education Ministry?
Lastly I am big fan of Seng Theary and not sure why people on here think she is seeking attention.
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She's a fluent native speaker with an American accent.LTO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:24 pmI was wondering about this. So she is not even a fluent native speaker of Khmer, and she feels she's in a position to redesign the language?starkmonster wrote:I heard Seng Theary speaking Khmer a few years back and at that time I would put her level at intermediate, advanced intermediate at a push. She's certainly not at the level where she can start deconstructing the language and schooling scholars on how it needs fixing.
It's an odd dynamic, some of these overseas supporters of the opposition - Christians that don't live here or are even native speakers, yet adamantly nationalistic and xenophobic (in a way that makes Trump look like a moderate,) and full of advice about how Cambodia should be doing things.
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