I don't see Hawaiian listed there, and with only 14 letters in the alphabet, I would imagine they would rank highly.jm wrote:Here's one comparison of reading speeds (Khmer not tested). Not huge differences across cultures but Chinese at the top, Arabic at the bottom in terms of texts/minute.
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ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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I still don't think there's anything wrong with Khmer, the lack of spaces is common to many Asian languages - Chinese, Japanese, Thai and Lao. I can read Khmer at a reasonable pace so I don't see any reason why a native speaker who reads frequently couldn't read at a pace similar to that of English.
The lack of spaces are only really an issue for absolute beginners because once they reach a word they don't know, they are unsure of where the next work starts. It doesn't really affect kids as they are given level specific materials and tend to start learning words long before sentences. The group is does affect are adult learners who are trying to tackle text above their reading level and attempting to translate word by word using a dictionary.
No spaces would never work in English because the characters are too uniform, whilst in Khmer with the vowels being placed around the nouns and compound nouns being written as a subscript each word has a unique shape which I think makes it far more like reading a logographic language like Chinese. When I read Khmer I don't feel that my eyes and brain are doing the same thing they're doing when they're reading English, it's more akin to pattern matching.
The Khmer alphabet is long, but language syntax in a phonetic writing system will always be a trade-off between accuracy and simplicity. The basic English alphabet is very simple but very inaccurate, you can't just teach someone the alphabet and expect them to be able to read with any degree of accuracy, they have to learn all of the compound sounds and then learn the countless number of exceptions, it can literally take a lifetime to master.
Khmer on the other hand goes heavy on the side of accuracy rather than simplicity, the alphabet is long, but it's very accurate. Once you know it you will be able to pronounce 90% of words perfectly and half of the remaining 10% will still be legible. I have a seven year old daughter so am super aware that's not the case in English, you can have learnt the entire alphabet years ago, but you still can't read with much accuracy.
Khmer also doesn't need comma's, things are said and written in a very standard way, unlike English there isn't dozens of possible grammatical constructs to express the same idea using similar words in various orders, which makes it easy to follow, but not great for poetry. Khmer also has words that fulfill the same purpose as comma's, you use ហើយ (hawie) to express the end of action. You use ក៏ (gor) before the verb to show a continuation and use ដោយ (dowie) to make a connection between two statements. The fact that these words are used far more frequently in written Khmer is because they aren't required as often in spoken Khmer where intonation does the same job.
Her other example she pointed out was also nonsense and would only apply if you were translating literally from another language and ignoring local politeness and formality. It was the issue when someone's family name for example is ស្រី (srey) as លោក (loak) means Mr and លោកស្រី (loak srey) means Mrs, in some cases ស្រី (srey) is a family name or first name, therefor you don't know if the subject is a man or a woman. This is completely wrong as in Khmer when you are using the formal prefix you always use the family name and the first name. You would always say Mr Srey Sovan, you would never say just Mr Srey. It sounds a bit complicated, but for anyone who reads Khmer it's blatantly obvious whether it's a man or a woman even if their family name is ស្រី.
I heard Seng Theary speaking Khmer a few years back and at that time I would put her level at intermediate, advanced intermediate at a push. She's certainly not at the level where she can start deconstructing the language and schooling scholars on how it needs fixing.
The lack of spaces are only really an issue for absolute beginners because once they reach a word they don't know, they are unsure of where the next work starts. It doesn't really affect kids as they are given level specific materials and tend to start learning words long before sentences. The group is does affect are adult learners who are trying to tackle text above their reading level and attempting to translate word by word using a dictionary.
No spaces would never work in English because the characters are too uniform, whilst in Khmer with the vowels being placed around the nouns and compound nouns being written as a subscript each word has a unique shape which I think makes it far more like reading a logographic language like Chinese. When I read Khmer I don't feel that my eyes and brain are doing the same thing they're doing when they're reading English, it's more akin to pattern matching.
The Khmer alphabet is long, but language syntax in a phonetic writing system will always be a trade-off between accuracy and simplicity. The basic English alphabet is very simple but very inaccurate, you can't just teach someone the alphabet and expect them to be able to read with any degree of accuracy, they have to learn all of the compound sounds and then learn the countless number of exceptions, it can literally take a lifetime to master.
Khmer on the other hand goes heavy on the side of accuracy rather than simplicity, the alphabet is long, but it's very accurate. Once you know it you will be able to pronounce 90% of words perfectly and half of the remaining 10% will still be legible. I have a seven year old daughter so am super aware that's not the case in English, you can have learnt the entire alphabet years ago, but you still can't read with much accuracy.
Khmer also doesn't need comma's, things are said and written in a very standard way, unlike English there isn't dozens of possible grammatical constructs to express the same idea using similar words in various orders, which makes it easy to follow, but not great for poetry. Khmer also has words that fulfill the same purpose as comma's, you use ហើយ (hawie) to express the end of action. You use ក៏ (gor) before the verb to show a continuation and use ដោយ (dowie) to make a connection between two statements. The fact that these words are used far more frequently in written Khmer is because they aren't required as often in spoken Khmer where intonation does the same job.
Her other example she pointed out was also nonsense and would only apply if you were translating literally from another language and ignoring local politeness and formality. It was the issue when someone's family name for example is ស្រី (srey) as លោក (loak) means Mr and លោកស្រី (loak srey) means Mrs, in some cases ស្រី (srey) is a family name or first name, therefor you don't know if the subject is a man or a woman. This is completely wrong as in Khmer when you are using the formal prefix you always use the family name and the first name. You would always say Mr Srey Sovan, you would never say just Mr Srey. It sounds a bit complicated, but for anyone who reads Khmer it's blatantly obvious whether it's a man or a woman even if their family name is ស្រី.
I heard Seng Theary speaking Khmer a few years back and at that time I would put her level at intermediate, advanced intermediate at a push. She's certainly not at the level where she can start deconstructing the language and schooling scholars on how it needs fixing.
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I was wondering about this. So she is not even a fluent native speaker of Khmer, and she feels she's in a position to redesign the language?starkmonster wrote:I heard Seng Theary speaking Khmer a few years back and at that time I would put her level at intermediate, advanced intermediate at a push. She's certainly not at the level where she can start deconstructing the language and schooling scholars on how it needs fixing.
It's an odd dynamic, some of these overseas supporters of the opposition - Christians that don't live here or are even native speakers, yet adamantly nationalistic and xenophobic (in a way that makes Trump look like a moderate,) and full of advice about how Cambodia should be doing things.
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Do you have a source for that? I looked but couldn't find one. Latin might have been written like that for quite a while, but given the earliest examples of written English are from around the time you mention and certainly have clear words and punctuation, I'm surprised by your assertion.
It WAS done. Dictionaries, textbooks etc were printed in the 40s, presumably using diacriticsPJC wrote:Khmer has 30 vowel sounds according to this:
http://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?t=27640
which would rule out using the Latin alphabet with 5 vowel signs (it's not much good for English either, for that matter, though presumably it was fine for Latin).
It would certainly be an improvement if words could have gaps between them and sentences could end with full stops. Commas would be nice too. I wonder whose job/authority it would be to do this? Education Ministry?
It WAS done. Dictionaries, textbooks etc were printed in the 40s using diacritics as in Vietnamese which could easily accommodate 30 vowel sounds.PJC wrote:Khmer has 30 vowel sounds according to this:
http://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?t=27640
which would rule out using the Latin alphabet with 5 vowel signs (it's not much good for English either, for that matter, though presumably it was fine for Latin).
It would certainly be an improvement if words could have gaps between them and sentences could end with full stops. Commas would be nice too. I wonder whose job/authority it would be to do this? Education Ministry?
Here's one table of romanized Khmer:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... /khmer.pdf
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Dear Sir,I just wish all these nig nogs would learn to speak English.
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Wowstarkmonster wrote:I still don't think there's anything wrong with Khmer, the lack of spaces is common to many Asian languages - Chinese, Japanese, Thai and Lao. I can read Khmer at a reasonable pace so I don't see any reason why a native speaker who reads frequently couldn't read at a pace similar to that of English.
The lack of spaces are only really an issue for absolute beginners because once they reach a word they don't know, they are unsure of where the next work starts. It doesn't really affect kids as they are given level specific materials and tend to start learning words long before sentences. The group is does affect are adult learners who are trying to tackle text above their reading level and attempting to translate word by word using a dictionary.
No spaces would never work in English because the characters are too uniform, whilst in Khmer with the vowels being placed around the nouns and compound nouns being written as a subscript each word has a unique shape which I think makes it far more like reading a logographic language like Chinese. When I read Khmer I don't feel that my eyes and brain are doing the same thing they're doing when they're reading English, it's more akin to pattern matching.
The Khmer alphabet is long, but language syntax in a phonetic writing system will always be a trade-off between accuracy and simplicity. The basic English alphabet is very simple but very inaccurate, you can't just teach someone the alphabet and expect them to be able to read with any degree of accuracy, they have to learn all of the compound sounds and then learn the countless number of exceptions, it can literally take a lifetime to master.
Khmer on the other hand goes heavy on the side of accuracy rather than simplicity, the alphabet is long, but it's very accurate. Once you know it you will be able to pronounce 90% of words perfectly and half of the remaining 10% will still be legible. I have a seven year old daughter so am super aware that's not the case in English, you can have learnt the entire alphabet years ago, but you still can't read with much accuracy.
Khmer also doesn't need comma's, things are said and written in a very standard way, unlike English there isn't dozens of possible grammatical constructs to express the same idea using similar words in various orders, which makes it easy to follow, but not great for poetry. Khmer also has words that fulfill the same purpose as comma's, you use ហើយ (hawie) to express the end of action. You use ក៏ (gor) before the verb to show a continuation and use ដោយ (dowie) to make a connection between two statements. The fact that these words are used far more frequently in written Khmer is because they aren't required as often in spoken Khmer where intonation does the same job.
Her other example she pointed out was also nonsense and would only apply if you were translating literally from another language and ignoring local politeness and formality. It was the issue when someone's family name for example is ស្រី (srey) as លោក (loak) means Mr and លោកស្រី (loak srey) means Mrs, in some cases ស្រី (srey) is a family name or first name, therefor you don't know if the subject is a man or a woman. This is completely wrong as in Khmer when you are using the formal prefix you always use the family name and the first name. You would always say Mr Srey Sovan, you would never say just Mr Srey. It sounds a bit complicated, but for anyone who reads Khmer it's blatantly obvious whether it's a man or a woman even if their family name is ស្រី.
I heard Seng Theary speaking Khmer a few years back and at that time I would put her level at intermediate, advanced intermediate at a push. She's certainly not at the level where she can start deconstructing the language and schooling scholars on how it needs fixing.
Feeling depressed now...
My Khmer French university teacher wouldn't have said it better and I should agree with you fully, yet I still wish they had commas and spaces, just as the lady said.
Or perhaps like the vast majority of Khmers who have had and continue to have limited access to quality education and are trying to decipher official government documents written in high Khmei by members of the elite that have had access to quality education. Surely that can't be of any particular importance to the country?starkmonster wrote: The lack of spaces are only really an issue for absolute beginners because once they reach a word they don't know, they are unsure of where the next work starts. ... The group is does affect are adult learners who are trying to tackle text above their reading level and attempting to translate word by word using a dictionary.
Language is dynamic, not static, and changes as needs arise. When you have large numbers of the population that are unable to fully participate in linguistic cultural transmission and acquire the inherent linguistic cultural capital that is attached to that due to the fact that the written language is unnecessarily difficult to access then responsible individuals who value an egalitarian society should be making suggestions to address the issue.
I have no idea if Seng Theary's suggestions are good or bad as I do not have enough knowledge of the language but from my own anecdotal experiences even well educated multi-lingual Khmers seem to often struggle with their own written language so maybe it is time to change?
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I've often had to hack together banners/ fliers etc in Khmer. I can't read it, so I have to ask one of the local staff to show me where I can break a line just to set the text in a way that looks ok. Then, when the line is broken, they will often have to rephrase/ rewrite the phrases. Then it'll go by someone else, who will invariably say that it's wrong and needs further correction. We don't have these sort of issues in English, where the sense of a sentence is not changed by formatting or hyphenation.
Another issue is the huge space needed for vowels/ sub-consonants etc on top or below the regular characters. Roman typefaces, unless over-elaborate, can fit within a pretty narrow row. Khmer text sometimes does, but usually doesn't, so you end up having to put in huge leading to accommodate all these characters.
Another issue is the huge space needed for vowels/ sub-consonants etc on top or below the regular characters. Roman typefaces, unless over-elaborate, can fit within a pretty narrow row. Khmer text sometimes does, but usually doesn't, so you end up having to put in huge leading to accommodate all these characters.
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
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The point is the only people that seem to agree that Khmer needs changing are people that can't read it. It's not hard, I think I could teach any of you in under 100 hours to the point where you could read just about anything.TJP777 wrote:Or perhaps like the vast majority of Khmers who have had and continue to have limited access to quality education and are trying to decipher official government documents written in high Khmei by members of the elite that have had access to quality education. Surely that can't be of any particular importance to the country?starkmonster wrote: The lack of spaces are only really an issue for absolute beginners because once they reach a word they don't know, they are unsure of where the next work starts. ... The group is does affect are adult learners who are trying to tackle text above their reading level and attempting to translate word by word using a dictionary.
Language is dynamic, not static, and changes as needs arise. When you have large numbers of the population that are unable to fully participate in linguistic cultural transmission and acquire the inherent linguistic cultural capital that is attached to that due to the fact that the written language is unnecessarily difficult to access then responsible individuals who value an egalitarian society should be making suggestions to address the issue.
I have no idea if Seng Theary's suggestions are good or bad as I do not have enough knowledge of the language but from my own anecdotal experiences even well educated multi-lingual Khmers seem to often struggle with their own written language so maybe it is time to change?
My son who's 10 speaks Khmer, but has been to international school where Khmer isn't taught so couldn't read/write. We've now been sending him to the local Khmer primary school for an hour a day after regular school for a month and already he's halfway there, I think within two months he will have gone past the English reading level of my seven year old daughter.
English is without doubt much more difficult to master. I read with my seven year old daughter daily so get everyday reminders about how illogical and inaccurate our writing system is.
If you know Khmers that read slowly and outloud like a child I think they are not quite as smart, educated or well read as you believe they are. That's more likely a result of the education system and a culture where reading for entertainment is rare rather than any issue with the syntax.
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Is the present format not being deliberately preserved precisely because it IS difficult for peasants to understand?
In the same way as the church held services in Latin for so long?
Look at any new law, the terms are deliberately vague (for example, work permits, the law states that the employer is 'responsible', but does not specify whether this is an administrative or financial responsibility)
One more way of holding on/ showing one's status.
In the same way as the church held services in Latin for so long?
Look at any new law, the terms are deliberately vague (for example, work permits, the law states that the employer is 'responsible', but does not specify whether this is an administrative or financial responsibility)
One more way of holding on/ showing one's status.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
TJP, your point about illiteracy is moot as illiteracy in any language is a problem for the people who can't read or write anyway.
I also noticed that Khmer writing/reading is more of a problem for people who either learned Khmer as their second language or have been practicing another language for most of their lives.
Khmer can be made easy to read by using short sentences and avoiding conjunctions as often as possible, as in any language actually. I observe that it's the people themselves who always make it complicated.
I'm slow at reading Khmer and I can't write sophisticated essays in Khmer but I guess it's the same for Cambodians when they read or write in English.
And the reading and writing books in Khmer is not a language issue, it's a people issue.
I also noticed that Khmer writing/reading is more of a problem for people who either learned Khmer as their second language or have been practicing another language for most of their lives.
Khmer can be made easy to read by using short sentences and avoiding conjunctions as often as possible, as in any language actually. I observe that it's the people themselves who always make it complicated.
I'm slow at reading Khmer and I can't write sophisticated essays in Khmer but I guess it's the same for Cambodians when they read or write in English.
And the reading and writing books in Khmer is not a language issue, it's a people issue.
The terms are vague not because of language but because of intentions.vladimir wrote:Is the present format not being deliberately preserved precisely because it IS difficult for peasants to understand?
In the same way as the church held services in Latin for so long?
Look at any new law, the terms are deliberately vague (for example, work permits, the law states that the employer is 'responsible', but does not specify whether this is an administrative or financial responsibility)
One more way of holding on/ showing one's status.
And it's not only an issue in Cambodia. Laws are usually drafted to lay out principles and then the implementing decrees, the executive and the judiciary would polish definitions and interpretations. That's how French law is drafted. Legal definitions of concepts would then be honed by jurisprudens.
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