Concern about immigration (bad border crossing incident) issue crossing back from HCMC to Phnom Penh via bus
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Concern about immigration (bad border crossing incident) issue crossing back from HCMC to Phnom Penh via bus
Hey Fellow Poopers!
This is a bit of a complicated issue, but I am hoping some/any folks here will have some insight/suggestions to solve this issue. My friend was living in Cambodia for four months last year (after having left the country to travel for a year and returned). He has lived in Cambodia on and off for the best part of the decade. Before he went on hiatus this last time the visa situation was that the Cambodian business visa could be extended indefinitely (you just paid the money and it was extended in-country), as many of you know. On return to Cambodia in 2018 the immigration law had changed such that it was now only possible to extend the visa ONCE, and then the person must leave the country and return on another business visa at the border, The problem started when his consistently trustworthy visa agent assured him that he could find a way to enable my friend to extend his visa BEYOND the first (and legally final) extension. Exercising a healthy amount of skepticism my friend made sure to check with the agent a few weeks before the final extension was to run out to ensure he could extend again. Lo and behold the visa agent (likely not purposefully) informed my friend that it would NOT be possible to extend the visa ("government policy change"), and that my friend would need to do a visa run. My friend had a choice between doing the visa run to Thailand, which was closer, BUT would only allow two months of visa, maximum, or Vietnam, which would give him three months of visa, and which could then also be extended. The main issues at this point were that my friend was traveling on his mountain bike (he NEVER, EVER takes the bus unless ABSOLUTELY necessary - and for good reason), and although he had done the 2-3 week ride of 300 km from Siem Reap to Phnom Penh in the past, there was simply not enough time to do this run at the comfortable pace necessary. In retrospect, the best decision would have been to ride the mere 100-150 km to Thailand (Aranya Prathet), stay two months, and re-enter Cambodia. Well, "Hindsight is 20/20..." as the saying goes.
It ended up that my friend could NOT immediately leave his apartment in Siem Reap to go to Vietnam, so he gave proper notice to the landlord (to get his deposit back) and ended up with merely TWO days to get from Siem Reap to Bavet/Moc Bai border and cross into Vietnam without overstaying the Cambodian visa. He ended up putting the bike on a bus in Siem Reap and enduring a GRUELING 12+ hour bus ride from Siem Reap to Phnom Penh. Then when he arrived in Phnom Penh he didn't have time to find a decent-quality guesthouse, and ended up in a TERRIBLE one where he barely got any sleep. So he was SEVERELY sleep-deprived and exhausted, and the next morning he went to the nearby bus station to book a ticket to the Bavet-Moc Bai border. He also bought six cans of stout beer for the ride, because he HATES the bus (for good reason), and because he knew that in such a sleep deprived state the alcohol would help him relax and/or sleep a little on the bus (which it did).
The bus ride was generally okay. There were few passengers on the bus, and there a was a respectable bathroom, and a cooler where he could keep his beer cold. The crisis began when the bus stopped for lunch (at the usual overpriced pre-arranged eatery) and my friend (having lived in country long enough) decided to walk over to one of the cheaper nearby places. He ate something cheap, and then went searching around the nearby drink shops to buy 4-6 individual cans of stout for the remaining ride from Bavet to HCMC. To his great aggravation NONE of the drink shops would sell him individual cans of beer (which is the NORM in Cambodia - to sell individual cans) and he was up against the clock so he just decided to buy a CASE of stout. There was no choice. Buying that case turned out to be HUGE mistake, which I will explain below).
As he reboarded the bus with the case he started getting attitude from the bus assistant (who had been nice - and doable - until then). They rolled out of the restaurant and up to the border. The idea was that all of the visa stuff would be taken care of by the bus company, and they DID start to do that. But by that time the bus attendant was becoming a bit more adversarial to my friend, who was NOT being belligerent in any way. I am sure she was uneasy about what would happen with that case between the border crossing and arriving in HCMC (which was NOT a valid concern, because my friend did NOT intend to drink the whole case on the bus - there was just no way to buy individual cans, as explained above).
Well, being quite tipsy, the bus assistant began pushing a bit too hard, and my friend started to lose it. The attendant directed the passengers to get off the bus to get their passport stamped by the immigration people, and my friend was in need of some smaller change (like USD singles which he didn't have because of the purchase of the case) - and when he walked off the bus and asked the money-changers if they had change, and they refused, he started to lose it and start yelling - A LOT! He demanded that the bus driver let him off the bus immediately, with his bike, and his case, and bike (he usually travels on the bike with his backpack on his back, and a duffel-bag on the handlebars - and in this case he would put the case on top of the duffel bag on the handlebars, and then sort things out once he crossed over to the Vietnam side. He started getting more and more angry, and yelling more, and the situation was getting out of control. No actual LAWS were broken, other than a lot of yelling, but it was a tense situation, and VERY VISIBLE. The case had already been opened, and after my friend got his visa stamped and was trying to put the case on top of the duffel-bag (on the handlebars) the cans kept falling out. It was a real mess. And he was so drunk and angry that he couldn't concentrate enough to get the black electric tape out of his bag (which has always has on hand for these kinds of crises) so that he could tape up the case and get it onto the duffel bag and roll over METHODICALLY to the Vietnamese boarder office. He just wanted to get out of the situation. In the end, after a LOT of yelling at just about EVERYONE he got to around 100 meters of the Vietnamese crossing, and then just dumped the whole case on the ground, which some lucky Cambodian onlookers were happy to pick up. My friend considered it a gift for just being able to get out of there intact.
Once on the Vietnamese side things actually went quite smoothly. He had attained the Vietnam 3-month tourist visa in Siam Reap, and so it was just a matter of going through the usual process. NO BRIBES were even asked by the Vietnamese immigration officers. Once over the border and in the town of Moc Bai my friend was in quite a state of shock as to what happened. This was the LAST thing he ever wanted to happen. If only the drink seller had just sold him 4-6 cans he could have put them in his bag and crossed over with no problem. My friend is STILL kicking himself, but also knows that this incident ONLY REINFORCED his "cardinal rule" to "Never, ever, ever, take the bus!"
For those of you still reading, the situation is that my friend had now been living in HCMC for a year. he has extended his tourist visa THREE times, for a WHOPPING $260 each time (every three months) and he burnt out on teaching English, and is now thinking it would be best to ATTEMPT to return to Cambodia on the business visa for one month (which then allows ONE extension - which he wants to do SIX months this time). However, he is SERIOUSLY concerned that that "crisis" when crossing the border last time may make it UNSAFE to do so. he has consulted with his visa agent in HCMC and there are TWO primary options which he is considering :
( 1 ) applying for the Cambodian business visa at the Cambodian embassy in HCMC ( ~ $35 ) as opposed to visa-on-arrival. He is thinking that the people at the Cambodian embassy in HCMC would be able to check any databases which may show any "red flags" due to this incident last year, and if any are found, would simply deny issuing the visa. This would save my friend from encountering any problems if he were to just show up at the border for the visa-on-arrival. This is especially serious since Vietnam DOES NOT have visa-on arrival, and so if he is turned away at the Cambodian border it is likely that Vietnamese immigration would NOT be able to stamp him back in, which would be a real problem.
( 2 ) If he DOES manage to get the Cambodian business visa at the Cambodian embassy/consulate in HCMC he is STILL concerned about any possibility that someone at the border may recognize him, and that EVEN WITH the visa in hand they may turn him back without the ability to re-enter Vietnam.
( 3 ) He is thinking that taking a bus from either HCMC -> Phnom Penh, or HCMC to Chau Doc, or HCMC -> Ha Tien (each crossing of which he has done before) may be the SAFEST way to get over the border, as the bus company may be able to provide some protection from any problems - especially if he just needs to get off the bus for a few minutes to get his pre-arranged Cambodian visa stamped in.
( 4 ) He is wondering the immigration people at Moc Bai just thought it was "another crazy guy yelling a lot" and didn't make much of it, nor do much to document the incident, and that my friend isn't actually on any "list" or "hall of shame", since again, no actual crime was committed besides a lot of yelling.
( 5 ) He is thinking that the Cambodian immigration system isn't all that streamlined, and so if he crosses back over at Chau Doc of Ha Tien there will be a better chance of success without problems. Paying a few dollars of "tea money" is NOT a major issue right now. Getting denied entry, or worse, is.
( 6 ) His visa agent in HCMC has offered him a "one year business visa" run package, which would cost $440 USD ( $35 for the Cambodian visa, $150 USD for the invitation letter for the business visa, $135 for the stamp upon re-entry on the Vietnam side + $120 VIP border run service with private car. Having that invitation letter would eliminate the worries of not being able to get stamped back in to Vietnam if, for any reason, rejected on the Cambodia side. This is also a multi-entry one year visa, which would allow him to ATTEMPT again to take the bus to Cambodia within the year. The downside to this is that he needs a break from Vietnam, and so this would kind of force him to stay in Vietnam up to another year, to justify the cost of the visa.
So this is the situation as it stands. My friend is stuck in HCMC, and the visa extension cost is making it nearly impossible to say much longer. He also MUST have his mountain bike at all times, and so land crossing is the ONLY valid option at this point.
If any of you have made it through reading this entire post I commend you, and ANY feedback is appreciated, if you can empathize with this situation and offer some practical advice. This is a SERIOUS issue which has really been bothering my friend since he entered Vietnam. We are hoping that this post (albeit tedious to write, and (likely), read) will get some/any valuable feedback which can help my friend achieve his goal of returning to Cambodia. He is very upset that this even happened, and in the future will try to uphold to his cardinal rule to "Never, ever, ever, take the bus." If he had had the necessary time to ride the bike to and over the boarded this would have not happened, and he would not have spent the last year torn up over this mess.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who have read this entire post.
Mr. Poopy-Pants
This is a bit of a complicated issue, but I am hoping some/any folks here will have some insight/suggestions to solve this issue. My friend was living in Cambodia for four months last year (after having left the country to travel for a year and returned). He has lived in Cambodia on and off for the best part of the decade. Before he went on hiatus this last time the visa situation was that the Cambodian business visa could be extended indefinitely (you just paid the money and it was extended in-country), as many of you know. On return to Cambodia in 2018 the immigration law had changed such that it was now only possible to extend the visa ONCE, and then the person must leave the country and return on another business visa at the border, The problem started when his consistently trustworthy visa agent assured him that he could find a way to enable my friend to extend his visa BEYOND the first (and legally final) extension. Exercising a healthy amount of skepticism my friend made sure to check with the agent a few weeks before the final extension was to run out to ensure he could extend again. Lo and behold the visa agent (likely not purposefully) informed my friend that it would NOT be possible to extend the visa ("government policy change"), and that my friend would need to do a visa run. My friend had a choice between doing the visa run to Thailand, which was closer, BUT would only allow two months of visa, maximum, or Vietnam, which would give him three months of visa, and which could then also be extended. The main issues at this point were that my friend was traveling on his mountain bike (he NEVER, EVER takes the bus unless ABSOLUTELY necessary - and for good reason), and although he had done the 2-3 week ride of 300 km from Siem Reap to Phnom Penh in the past, there was simply not enough time to do this run at the comfortable pace necessary. In retrospect, the best decision would have been to ride the mere 100-150 km to Thailand (Aranya Prathet), stay two months, and re-enter Cambodia. Well, "Hindsight is 20/20..." as the saying goes.
It ended up that my friend could NOT immediately leave his apartment in Siem Reap to go to Vietnam, so he gave proper notice to the landlord (to get his deposit back) and ended up with merely TWO days to get from Siem Reap to Bavet/Moc Bai border and cross into Vietnam without overstaying the Cambodian visa. He ended up putting the bike on a bus in Siem Reap and enduring a GRUELING 12+ hour bus ride from Siem Reap to Phnom Penh. Then when he arrived in Phnom Penh he didn't have time to find a decent-quality guesthouse, and ended up in a TERRIBLE one where he barely got any sleep. So he was SEVERELY sleep-deprived and exhausted, and the next morning he went to the nearby bus station to book a ticket to the Bavet-Moc Bai border. He also bought six cans of stout beer for the ride, because he HATES the bus (for good reason), and because he knew that in such a sleep deprived state the alcohol would help him relax and/or sleep a little on the bus (which it did).
The bus ride was generally okay. There were few passengers on the bus, and there a was a respectable bathroom, and a cooler where he could keep his beer cold. The crisis began when the bus stopped for lunch (at the usual overpriced pre-arranged eatery) and my friend (having lived in country long enough) decided to walk over to one of the cheaper nearby places. He ate something cheap, and then went searching around the nearby drink shops to buy 4-6 individual cans of stout for the remaining ride from Bavet to HCMC. To his great aggravation NONE of the drink shops would sell him individual cans of beer (which is the NORM in Cambodia - to sell individual cans) and he was up against the clock so he just decided to buy a CASE of stout. There was no choice. Buying that case turned out to be HUGE mistake, which I will explain below).
As he reboarded the bus with the case he started getting attitude from the bus assistant (who had been nice - and doable - until then). They rolled out of the restaurant and up to the border. The idea was that all of the visa stuff would be taken care of by the bus company, and they DID start to do that. But by that time the bus attendant was becoming a bit more adversarial to my friend, who was NOT being belligerent in any way. I am sure she was uneasy about what would happen with that case between the border crossing and arriving in HCMC (which was NOT a valid concern, because my friend did NOT intend to drink the whole case on the bus - there was just no way to buy individual cans, as explained above).
Well, being quite tipsy, the bus assistant began pushing a bit too hard, and my friend started to lose it. The attendant directed the passengers to get off the bus to get their passport stamped by the immigration people, and my friend was in need of some smaller change (like USD singles which he didn't have because of the purchase of the case) - and when he walked off the bus and asked the money-changers if they had change, and they refused, he started to lose it and start yelling - A LOT! He demanded that the bus driver let him off the bus immediately, with his bike, and his case, and bike (he usually travels on the bike with his backpack on his back, and a duffel-bag on the handlebars - and in this case he would put the case on top of the duffel bag on the handlebars, and then sort things out once he crossed over to the Vietnam side. He started getting more and more angry, and yelling more, and the situation was getting out of control. No actual LAWS were broken, other than a lot of yelling, but it was a tense situation, and VERY VISIBLE. The case had already been opened, and after my friend got his visa stamped and was trying to put the case on top of the duffel-bag (on the handlebars) the cans kept falling out. It was a real mess. And he was so drunk and angry that he couldn't concentrate enough to get the black electric tape out of his bag (which has always has on hand for these kinds of crises) so that he could tape up the case and get it onto the duffel bag and roll over METHODICALLY to the Vietnamese boarder office. He just wanted to get out of the situation. In the end, after a LOT of yelling at just about EVERYONE he got to around 100 meters of the Vietnamese crossing, and then just dumped the whole case on the ground, which some lucky Cambodian onlookers were happy to pick up. My friend considered it a gift for just being able to get out of there intact.
Once on the Vietnamese side things actually went quite smoothly. He had attained the Vietnam 3-month tourist visa in Siam Reap, and so it was just a matter of going through the usual process. NO BRIBES were even asked by the Vietnamese immigration officers. Once over the border and in the town of Moc Bai my friend was in quite a state of shock as to what happened. This was the LAST thing he ever wanted to happen. If only the drink seller had just sold him 4-6 cans he could have put them in his bag and crossed over with no problem. My friend is STILL kicking himself, but also knows that this incident ONLY REINFORCED his "cardinal rule" to "Never, ever, ever, take the bus!"
For those of you still reading, the situation is that my friend had now been living in HCMC for a year. he has extended his tourist visa THREE times, for a WHOPPING $260 each time (every three months) and he burnt out on teaching English, and is now thinking it would be best to ATTEMPT to return to Cambodia on the business visa for one month (which then allows ONE extension - which he wants to do SIX months this time). However, he is SERIOUSLY concerned that that "crisis" when crossing the border last time may make it UNSAFE to do so. he has consulted with his visa agent in HCMC and there are TWO primary options which he is considering :
( 1 ) applying for the Cambodian business visa at the Cambodian embassy in HCMC ( ~ $35 ) as opposed to visa-on-arrival. He is thinking that the people at the Cambodian embassy in HCMC would be able to check any databases which may show any "red flags" due to this incident last year, and if any are found, would simply deny issuing the visa. This would save my friend from encountering any problems if he were to just show up at the border for the visa-on-arrival. This is especially serious since Vietnam DOES NOT have visa-on arrival, and so if he is turned away at the Cambodian border it is likely that Vietnamese immigration would NOT be able to stamp him back in, which would be a real problem.
( 2 ) If he DOES manage to get the Cambodian business visa at the Cambodian embassy/consulate in HCMC he is STILL concerned about any possibility that someone at the border may recognize him, and that EVEN WITH the visa in hand they may turn him back without the ability to re-enter Vietnam.
( 3 ) He is thinking that taking a bus from either HCMC -> Phnom Penh, or HCMC to Chau Doc, or HCMC -> Ha Tien (each crossing of which he has done before) may be the SAFEST way to get over the border, as the bus company may be able to provide some protection from any problems - especially if he just needs to get off the bus for a few minutes to get his pre-arranged Cambodian visa stamped in.
( 4 ) He is wondering the immigration people at Moc Bai just thought it was "another crazy guy yelling a lot" and didn't make much of it, nor do much to document the incident, and that my friend isn't actually on any "list" or "hall of shame", since again, no actual crime was committed besides a lot of yelling.
( 5 ) He is thinking that the Cambodian immigration system isn't all that streamlined, and so if he crosses back over at Chau Doc of Ha Tien there will be a better chance of success without problems. Paying a few dollars of "tea money" is NOT a major issue right now. Getting denied entry, or worse, is.
( 6 ) His visa agent in HCMC has offered him a "one year business visa" run package, which would cost $440 USD ( $35 for the Cambodian visa, $150 USD for the invitation letter for the business visa, $135 for the stamp upon re-entry on the Vietnam side + $120 VIP border run service with private car. Having that invitation letter would eliminate the worries of not being able to get stamped back in to Vietnam if, for any reason, rejected on the Cambodia side. This is also a multi-entry one year visa, which would allow him to ATTEMPT again to take the bus to Cambodia within the year. The downside to this is that he needs a break from Vietnam, and so this would kind of force him to stay in Vietnam up to another year, to justify the cost of the visa.
So this is the situation as it stands. My friend is stuck in HCMC, and the visa extension cost is making it nearly impossible to say much longer. He also MUST have his mountain bike at all times, and so land crossing is the ONLY valid option at this point.
If any of you have made it through reading this entire post I commend you, and ANY feedback is appreciated, if you can empathize with this situation and offer some practical advice. This is a SERIOUS issue which has really been bothering my friend since he entered Vietnam. We are hoping that this post (albeit tedious to write, and (likely), read) will get some/any valuable feedback which can help my friend achieve his goal of returning to Cambodia. He is very upset that this even happened, and in the future will try to uphold to his cardinal rule to "Never, ever, ever, take the bus." If he had had the necessary time to ride the bike to and over the boarded this would have not happened, and he would not have spent the last year torn up over this mess.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who have read this entire post.
Mr. Poopy-Pants
Last edited by MrPoopyPants on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I've taken the bus in Cambodia many times without incident. But I don't shout at bus staff and money changers and drink sellers.
Follow my lame Twitter feed: @gavin_mac
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I detailed clearly in the OP that there were SEVERAL factors which lead to the incident (negligence by the visa agent in Siem Reap), severe sleep deprivation, alcohol, (unjustified) provocation by bus attendant. For the record, no drink sellers were yelled at. It was simply explained that they wouldn't sell individual cans of beer (4-6 can) to get through the rest of the journey and into a guesthouse for sleep. It was a bad situation all around, and just trying to figure out some damage control to be safe. This issue had never happened before. It was the result of several factors detailed in the OP. As mentioned, no crime was actually committed (just yelling - a lot). Unfortunate incident, but sh*t happens. Given the proper time to rest and get to the border on the bike this wouldn't have happened. Just trying to figure out a method o safe passage, and stick to the cardinal rule of "Never, ever, ever take the bus." Too many bad experiences on busses out here.
Mr Poopy-Pants
Mr Poopy-Pants
Your "friend" thinks it's safer to pedal a mountain bike 200km on Cambodian roads than it is to ride the bus?
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@Yo Teach!
Haha! --> Yup!
He's pedaled THOUSANDS of kilometers in SEA in the past five years. But yes, there are INDEED risks, but not so much the physical risks of driving as the more mental type of risks (of which the incident detailed in the OP is NOT included).
Ironically, the bike is actually physically safer than any motorized vehicle. Trust me.
Mr. Poopy-Pants
Haha! --> Yup!
He's pedaled THOUSANDS of kilometers in SEA in the past five years. But yes, there are INDEED risks, but not so much the physical risks of driving as the more mental type of risks (of which the incident detailed in the OP is NOT included).
Ironically, the bike is actually physically safer than any motorized vehicle. Trust me.
Mr. Poopy-Pants
Don't drink a case of Black Panther when doing a border run.
Massive stalker
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@pedros - Agreed.
Or perhaps, more specifically, [in my own words] "Don't take the bus, and then you won't feel the NEED to drink [a partial] case of Black Panther when doing a border run."
Point taken.
Mr. Poopy-Pants
Or perhaps, more specifically, [in my own words] "Don't take the bus, and then you won't feel the NEED to drink [a partial] case of Black Panther when doing a border run."
Point taken.
Mr. Poopy-Pants
So, Mr Poopy Head,
Basically, you got pissed-up and made a twat out of yourself. And now you want to come back, re-tracing your steps over the scene of your shameful behaviour. Well, I wouldn't. They certainly have your photo pinned up in every immigration booth, with a sticker saying 'drunken Black Panther boy - detain immediately'.
Basically, you got pissed-up and made a twat out of yourself. And now you want to come back, re-tracing your steps over the scene of your shameful behaviour. Well, I wouldn't. They certainly have your photo pinned up in every immigration booth, with a sticker saying 'drunken Black Panther boy - detain immediately'.
TheGrimReaper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:45 pmSlavedog, you do not belong on this forum as you talk too much sense.
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@slavedog - Haha!
Yes, but no.
But half-yes, but half-no.
Or, somewhere on the gradient between yes and no.
Mr Poopy-Pants
Yes, but no.
But half-yes, but half-no.
Or, somewhere on the gradient between yes and no.
Mr Poopy-Pants
You should probably stop drinking guy.
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Are we talking about big buses here? Are you shittin' me? If your fear is that great you should do a bit more planning.
Freedom is not a state. It is an act. It is not some enchanted garden perched high on a distant plateau.. Freedom is a continuous action we all must take, and each generation must do its part to create an even more fair, more just society.-John Lewis
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It seems like riding buses requires a certain level on interaction with other humans that the OP has difficulty navigating.
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