Poor Muslim lads get their winkies sliced for free

[Rune]

Firstly FMG is not an Islamic thing; it has its origins in various tribal cultures, mainly but not exclusively in Africa, some of which are Muslim and some of which aren’t.

Also, the article above is wrong. Male children are not required to be circumcised. It’s recommended (purely for health reasons, which are debatable) but is certainly not obligatory.

I applaud decoupling female circumcision from Islam. Otherwise, it'd be impossible to stamp out. But that was not what I said. I was wondering whether Muslims in Cambodia use the ritual type of FGM being practiced in Indonesia. And then commenting about the hypocrisy of people being vehemently against such a mostly harmless ritual, while at the same time not being against male circumcision. Even going out of their way to make sure other countries do not try to restrict it.

[Rune]

You highlight one of the challenges of Islamic scholarship - interpretation and the lack of a solitary view. Worse, the prejudices of old men from different tribal backgrounds are presented as Islamic truths. Even the various Hadiths are suspect: it’s very telling that most of the more repressive aspects of contemporary Islam - and the reason for its bad reputation - come from hadiths, published centuries after Muhammad’s death, and interpreted by those same Islamic leaders fighting each other for control. None are to be trusted.

There is nothing in the Koran about circumcision. As such no school of Islam, and no scholar during the last 16 centuries, can rightfully claim it is obligatory. Ipso facto, it isn’t.

Your logic might be sound but you aren't the Pope of Islam. The fact is that some Islamic schools and scholars can and do claim that male circumcision is obligatory.

As do some Christian churches and sects, particularly in Asia and Africa. In fact, in Acts 16 the apostle Paul forces Timothy to get the chop, so there is Biblical text around it too (unlike Koranic).

And yet I don’t see anyone extrapolating and saying it’s Christian to be circumcised, so why do it with Islam?

Timotheus gets the chop in order to better fit in with the Jewish community. Not because it is Christian. As far as I can see the Bible expressly says circumcision is at best useless (Galatians 3:28, 5:6, 1 Corinthians 7:19, Philippians 3:3), or a direct affront to God (Acts 15:1-2). I have no idea why US Christians have been conned into going through with the operation. The practice in the USA does seem to be slowly declining though.

I think a large part of why it was done in the USA, was simply down to profit. Hospitals made good money from it.

[Harold]

I don't think there are any churches besides maybe some obscure cult with negligible membership that mandate circumcision for men. Even the churches in Ethiopia and Eritrea do not mandate the practice. I think men in the Coptic Church and in the churches in Ethiopia and Eritrea undergo the procedure as a matter of custom. A similar custom exists in the United States strangely enough.

I don't think Paul forced Timothy to be circumcised. Timothy was circumcised as a matter of custom because his mother was Jewish so he was Jewish according to halacha. Unlike the Quran, which does not mention circumcision at all, the New Testament does discuss it. As Paul himself said,"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts."

In the early Christian church, many Jewish converts to Christianity wanted to retain the old covenant. Paul was criticized for his evangelism to the gentiles and even accused of opposing circumcision. The Council of Jerusalem determined that circumcision was not necessary for gentile converts to the faith and every Bible believing Christian agrees with the conclusions of the counsel as far as I'm aware.

[RobW]

I don't know about the boys' winkies, but the Muslim girls' foufous are cut like an empty quarter orange peel in Malaysia.
In my youth in the '80s I was surprised to come across 3 in a row, so I asked around a bit and was told it was normal. Latterly with the benefit of Google I see it is the huge majority and mandated by some bearded busy body or other.
I'm told it is becoming more common in Cambodia with the money coming from Qatar.
It's a fucking horrible thing to do.

[Rune]

Foufus is an African dish typically made of yams. That's what ChatGPT tells me, and everything ChatGPT says is true, so it must be it. But what you are saying is that they cut off the clitoris and inner labia? I didn't know they did that in Malaysia, didn't think they were doing it in Qatar either. Thought it was mostly an African thing. How did you come across it? As a doctor, or with sex partners?

[Lucky Lucan]

Thought it was mostly an African thing.

You can see here it spreads right across many parts of the Middle East and Asia.

[Rune]

Yes, but I think it is misleading because it mixes all kinds of operations together. Those really bad ones where they cut off a lot of stuff, and the mostly harmless ritual ones. Which I thought were what was prevalent in Asia. I can't really get super upset over a prick on the clitoris leaving no permanent damage. Whereas cutting off whole organs clearly should be illegal and prosecuted.

[RobW]

there is little information concerning the practice in South East Asia (Clarence-Smith 2008; Marranci 2015; Putranti and Kebijakan 2003; Rashid and Iguchi 2019). There are only a handful of published studies on FGC in Malaysia and no official data relating to its practice. From the studies that have been conducted, the prevalence of FGC is about 99% in the Muslim community (Ab. Rahman et al. 1999; Rashid and Iguchi 2019; Rashid et al. 2009). In Indonesia FGC is reported to range from 43 to 95% (Putranti and Kebijakan 2003). There is no official data for Singapore and Thailand (Clarence-Smith 2008; Marranci 2015) but it is believed that most Muslims in these countries practice FGC. The practice of FGC has been prevalent in the Muslim community especially the Malay Muslim community in Malaysia for centuries. Although largely considered a religious practice, culture has also been commonly cited as a reason. FGC in Malaysia is not openly discussed or planned as is done for male circumcision; however, it is sanctioned by the community elders.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 9-6723-8_8

[fapsara]

It's not entirely free because the boys have to leave a tip.

[Rune]

It's not entirely free because the boys have to leave a tip.

10% or 20%? And they're short enough as is. Poor girls.

[schlarry]

It's not entirely free because the boys have to leave a tip.

10% or 20%? And they're short enough as is. Poor girls.

I think he was speaking figure-a-tively, not clitorally