I quite enjoyed the banter. What's the point of k440 without such heady discussions?Playboy wrote:Seven pages of, 'who the hell cares'.
Huge Issues with Phnom Penh's biggest expat school ISPP?
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For such an expert you really must get your grammar sorted out. I certainly wouldn't want my child in your class![/quote]Barfly wrote:[quote="I think I've written about 5000 words in support of my position and they seem to read the first sentence and then completely misunderstanding me and then insulting me!
Yeah, I doubt you could afford to put a kid in my school mate, so no worries there (hate to sound like a twat, but you sounded like one first.
I write quite a bit and the piece usually gets the proofing it deserves.
For my external studies in the Graduate Diploma through quite a prestigious university in the UK for instance, I would proof the final draft quite a few times before submission.
For K440, I never proof. No offence, but this is just a social website mate.
Grammar is something that would be abandoned as a discrete unit in junior high school in Western countries. It would be assumed prior knowledge by senior.
Funny how Teflers in general, from my point of view and in my opinion only, seem to hold grammar as the pinnacle of their vocational knowledge. I never taught it as a stand-alone after grade ten in Aus (and only when I couldn't avoid a literature class). The content is of far greater importance in Diploma studies than the grammar (usually weighted quite lowly, perhaps around 10-5%.
So matey, send your kid to a tefl college. We'll all be happy then!
But you read 'em mate!Playboy wrote:Seven pages of, 'who the hell cares'.
Seriously though, this is not your problem. I doubt you have unskilled workers turning up in hoards and laying claim to your profession.
We are the only poor buggers so bedevilled! And it really only happens in Asia. And it's only a handful of twats at the end of the day.
We could follow accountants or nurses I suppose (CPAs and RNs now); but it's not fair that we must qualify our title in response to a bunch of casual workers who seem to be in almost pathological denial of the reality of their employment.
Anyway, I'm going to start addressing myself with some title that I have no right whatsoever to and see what sort of reaction I get.
HRH Denchao IV, MD, Phd, llb. DSO, VC. OBE. Former president of the USA, owner of Nagaworld, Lord PBs dominatrix.
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1. I totally agree with Dengchao about the nitpicking re. grammar/typos/brain temporarily switched off that results in a rogue "there" instead of "their", or forgotten commas, or commas out of place, or even a rouge instead of a rogue. I never really understand the mentality of the people expecting 100% perfect writing on this web forum. Guess they have little else to make themselves feel top of the English writing game and little else to try to bring others down to a level that allows them to feel superior. Sad.
2. Dengchao, you didn't have to focus on grammar back in your Oz classes, because you were teaching native speakers (unless I've missed the detail as I skim read your posts) . TEFLers, in general, will focus on grammar more than you would have in your classes, because grammar isn't picked up at a young age in an osmosis-like fashion (those that want to prove their intelligence and disprove any that I might have will likely now start throwing around the "correct" terminology) by non-native speaking students. It has to be taught. Also, in Cambodia there is a high demand from the students themselves to learn the grammar. They value it (too) highly - put way too much emphasis on it sometimes. And, finally, if the instructor/tutor is of an ESL background rather than a TEFL background, they are actually (incorrectly some would argue) working to bring their students up to a native speaker fluency, rather than the 'be understood' type of learning that TEFL is actually geared toward. This distinction between what is trying to be achieved by ESL vs TEFL is getting more and more blurred, and it is esp. murky in Cambodia.
2. Dengchao, you didn't have to focus on grammar back in your Oz classes, because you were teaching native speakers (unless I've missed the detail as I skim read your posts) . TEFLers, in general, will focus on grammar more than you would have in your classes, because grammar isn't picked up at a young age in an osmosis-like fashion (those that want to prove their intelligence and disprove any that I might have will likely now start throwing around the "correct" terminology) by non-native speaking students. It has to be taught. Also, in Cambodia there is a high demand from the students themselves to learn the grammar. They value it (too) highly - put way too much emphasis on it sometimes. And, finally, if the instructor/tutor is of an ESL background rather than a TEFL background, they are actually (incorrectly some would argue) working to bring their students up to a native speaker fluency, rather than the 'be understood' type of learning that TEFL is actually geared toward. This distinction between what is trying to be achieved by ESL vs TEFL is getting more and more blurred, and it is esp. murky in Cambodia.
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
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Nope ... in truth, you barely registered with me until this post.KL&fool wrote: If you're having a dig at me,!
Last edited by violet on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
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Well as I don't know who you are .. .from your comment it seems you have a new name on the board... I wouldn't knowKL&fool wrote:
You have defended such mistakes before against me.
And I don't actually defend these types of mistakes I just truly think it is ridiculous.
don't know what's got up your shirt today.
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
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Is it too much to hope that this meaningless and acrimonious exchange, which long ceased to have any bearing on events at ISPP, comes to an end very soon?
It can come to and end at the same instant you choose to ignore it mate! You don't need hope, just a bit of will power;enough to read no more after this full-stop.
Wow KL! Here is a classic case in point. I have focused on the content of my argument to support my position in a long-running debate. You, instead of recognising the essence of my position, picked out a there/their mistake.KL&fool wrote:If you're having a dig at me, I did it to make a point as I always feel a bit hurt when people (such as DC) slag off EFL teachers. I also do that to prats who try to pass themselves off as EFL teachers, such as some posters on this forum who can't write for proverbial toffee. The fact is that if people constantly make silly mistakes when posting, it is likely that they will do the same when writing on the white board. You have defended such mistakes before against me. That is your prerogative, just as it's mine to defend my position. If anything's sad, it's the constant stream of mistakes from people who claim to be teachers of English.violet wrote:1. I totally agree with Dengchao about the nitpicking re. grammar/typos/brain temporarily switched off that results in a rogue "there" instead of "their", or forgotten commas, or commas out of place, or even a rouge instead of a rogue. I never really understand the mentality of the people expecting 100% perfect writing on this web forum. Guess they have little else to make themselves feel top of the English writing game and little else to try to bring others down to a level that allows them to feel superior
I'm old-fashioned and expect people who call themselves English teachers to be able to write (and post) in good English. Sorry if that's not trendy enough in today's modern, hip, PC world, but that's the way (ah ha, ah ha) I like it.
I'm not going to start insulting and slagging people off, though, as we're all different.
It would be lovely to do a Dengchao and say something like: 'I don't think I'm superior; I AM superior. ' But I won't! What a pity some posters resort to personal insults. But, that's the nature of a discussion forum, I dare say.
Have a nice evening!
You then use this to draw some very long bows indeed.
Please go back and focus on my content rather than picking on a couple of grammar errors (that wouldn't affect the grade of a kid sitting his final exams for a IB Diploma to any degree of <2%, if at all); you may make a cognitive shift that will allow you to perceive writers' intent, for eg:
1. Poor Violet did not 'have a dig at you,' she concurred with me on a point of this debate. That she disagreed with you in so doing should certainly not be taken personally!
2. I've qualified myself on numerous occasions on this matter: I am not slagging off the EFL industry. Instead of using a microscope to find grammar mistakes, please count the times I have paid my respects to EFLers. I also apologised when I realised my vitriol (which was aimed at one individual's preposterous comments) may have caused offence.
3. I'm going to attempt an interpretation of what you meant by the whiteboard comment: because of the grammar errors I've made (go and count them if you want mate, Baccalaureate Lang A teachers would not), I might make frequent errors on the whiteboard, ergo, myself and all those who've made a grammar error on K440 are, in some degree, deficient in their job as an Efler or profession as a Teacher. Am I right?
Mate, I witness quite a few grammar errors you've made. I am looking beyond them. Your content is flawed in my opinion.
I've previously paid my respects to you and acknowledged your qualifications do indeed surpass mine. In fact, the lowliest Tefler who got High Achievement in Grade 12 English and then got a Tefl cert (even the really basic one that you can get online on a weekend), would actually have greater tertiary qualifications in English than I.
So the crux of my respects to you were: I don't think you're superior to me in English, you are superior... but your history does need a bit of attention.
My studies have always been in the Humanities. I have only had English classes in Australia where I had some G8-10 classes. While G 11-12 History and Legal Studies were open to me, G 11-12 English was firmly closed, quite rightly so. The teachers allowed access to those crucial final years were those with tertiary studies in English Lit. I would have dis-served senior students if I took such a class; this is something I would never do.
I know you are well qualified in Lit, but I wonder why you seem to be misunderstanding fundamental elements of argument and picking out silly grammar errors.
I too decry the decline of grammar in the English - speaking world. But there is a difference in an isolated grammar error (eg: there/their) and an ongoing misunderstanding (eg: belief that one must use an apostrophe to denote plurality - a personal pet hatred of mine as it appears so ubiquitously).
I second your sentiments KL, but I question your idea (if I read your intent correctly) that people should write with perfect adherence to English grammar on a site such as this. I know you have made some grammar errors yourself with the briefest of glances at your former post. I will not point them out as I don't believe they matter in this case.
I think your content suggests that you have failed to comprehend the heart of posts that both Violet and I made... like completely misunderstood.
Of more importance than strict adherence to elementary conventions, the communication of the true essence of content is of far greater importance; whether you be a teacher of language or a humanity.
I agree with Violet that Eflers must necessarily focus on grammar as ESLers need these building blocks to get to that level I speak of, ie: that level that we are using now. But the native proficiency of Violet's, yours and mine is clear.
KL, you know better than to be picking silly grammar errors (that form no pattern of repetition) in order to impugn me (if that were your intent as I perceive it to be) seemingly in retaliation to what you perceive as an attack I have made on you.
I know that your mastery of English is beyond refutation; I've said so before more than once. Why then are you resorting a silly base-level Tefler tactic of picking on grammar burps in response to a recurring and legitimate debate? I reckon you're better than that.
I completely agree Violet. I have never set foot in an Efl college, though I have sent my wife to one (I got a bit upset with them, but that's a different post). So helping my wife with her homework gave me quite an insight into the importance of elementary grammar.violet wrote:1. I totally agree with Dengchao about the nitpicking re. grammar/typos/brain temporarily switched off that results in a rogue "there" instead of "their", or forgotten commas, or commas out of place, or even a rouge instead of a rogue. I never really understand the mentality of the people expecting 100% perfect writing on this web forum. Guess they have little else to make themselves feel top of the English writing game and little else to try to bring others down to a level that allows them to feel superior. Sad.
2. Dengchao, you didn't have to focus on grammar back in your Oz classes, because you were teaching native speakers (unless I've missed the detail as I skim read your posts) . TEFLers, in general, will focus on grammar more than you would have in your classes, because grammar isn't picked up at a young age in an osmosis-like fashion (those that want to prove their intelligence and disprove any that I might have will likely now start throwing around the "correct" terminology) by non-native speaking students. It has to be taught. Also, in Cambodia there is a high demand from the students themselves to learn the grammar. They value it (too) highly - put way too much emphasis on it sometimes. And, finally, if the instructor/tutor is of an ESL background rather than a TEFL background, they are actually (incorrectly some would argue) working to bring their students up to a native speaker fluency, rather than the 'be understood' type of learning that TEFL is actually geared toward. This distinction between what is trying to be achieved by ESL vs TEFL is getting more and more blurred, and it is esp. murky in Cambodia.
She is the only person who I correct on fundamental grammar mistakes because I refuse to be in a cross-cultural marriage which relies on Pidgin as the mode of communication; so this is perhaps my sole insight to the coal-face that the poor Teflers face every day. It would drive me up the wall! My wife alone has been a massive challenge over the years. I couldn't face rooms full of her every day!
I now see the grinding work of the Efl industry. I know that it is not a profession due to its very nature, but it is necessary and challenging work nonetheless. It's a completely different industry to mine for certain.
God bless the unions GGE: http://education.qld.gov.au/projects/ed ... 91110.htmlGary Gilmour's Eyes wrote:As usual, Dengchao, I agree with most of the points you are making, but where the hell did you get the figure of 100K for an Australian teacher? When I last taught in Queensland in 2003, the gross salary for a teacher with 8 yrs. or more experience was AU$48,000. It was raised to $52,000 at the end of that year and I understand it is now about $58,000.
Of course, I was teaching in the government system, but it is standard practice for private school teachers to receive the same salaries and raises as teachers in the state system. The only exceptions are a relatively small number of elite private schools that pay above the standard rates, but nothing like the figures you have mentioned. That sort of money is earned by administrators, not classroom teachers.
FIRST YEARS now start on $57,000!
Christ on a cracker....
One of the few threads on teaching I just can't even begin to read...
Horace, can u whip up another summary for us?
One of the few threads on teaching I just can't even begin to read...
Horace, can u whip up another summary for us?
Forgive me DC - I'm not a teacher, but you haven't answered the question - how do you earn 100k as a teacher in Aus, or Qld for that matter?Dengchao wrote:God bless the unions GGE: http://education.qld.gov.au/projects/ed ... 91110.htmlGary Gilmour's Eyes wrote:As usual, Dengchao, I agree with most of the points you are making, but where the hell did you get the figure of 100K for an Australian teacher? When I last taught in Queensland in 2003, the gross salary for a teacher with 8 yrs. or more experience was AU$48,000. It was raised to $52,000 at the end of that year and I understand it is now about $58,000.
Of course, I was teaching in the government system, but it is standard practice for private school teachers to receive the same salaries and raises as teachers in the state system. The only exceptions are a relatively small number of elite private schools that pay above the standard rates, but nothing like the figures you have mentioned. That sort of money is earned by administrators, not classroom teachers.
FIRST YEARS now start on $57,000!
The following link is the Qld teachers award agreement (2011), and according to schedule 5, the highest a "teacher" can earn is about 80K. The highest level education administrator gets close to 100K. (Before tax). http://www.qirc.qld.gov.au/resources/pd ... 200911.pdf
So, and I haven't read through all the previous text, where exactly did you teach in OZ to get over 100K? From my understanding, Qld is probably up there near the top in terms of remuneration, I think Vic is the lowest.
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