Five Men Beer
I have been there two times. On both occasions the lager was fantastic but on both occasions after 2 or 3 their lager was shit flat as a my chest!!!! And the food was shit too. Good venue if they got it all together it would be a winner. No body wants to drink flat piss.
Isn't there a K440 member who is somehow involved with this 5 men beer? Why doesn't he speak up!
I'm not a negative person, I encourage people all the time...it's usually to f**k off! But, whatever.
Here's that pump working.
It takes quite some effort to pull through a closed-down sprinkler, and even though she's leaning back, this old girl finds it easy, so I think it's maybe not closed down enough. The beer looks to be settling quickly, too. I'd tighten it up to aerate more and with smaller bubbles and I'd pull more beer through the glass, but you can see the overflow / re-circulation idea working here.
It takes quite some effort to pull through a closed-down sprinkler, and even though she's leaning back, this old girl finds it easy, so I think it's maybe not closed down enough. The beer looks to be settling quickly, too. I'd tighten it up to aerate more and with smaller bubbles and I'd pull more beer through the glass, but you can see the overflow / re-circulation idea working here.
Not quite right...Chuangt2u wrote:What's all this "carbonated" chatter?
Hand-pulled beer is and should be flat. It has no carbonation whatsoever. The pulling process livens it up a little and introduces air.
http://cask-marque.co.uk/beer-drinkers/great-pint/Cask Marque wrote:3. Contrary to what some people think, cask beer is NOT ‘flat’. When cask beer is fresh and in good condition it should leave a tingle on your tongue, from naturally occurring carbon dioxide in the product. Flat beer is normally a sign of beer that has been on sale for too long and lost all its ‘condition’.
"Where's my 'tingle on the tongue' - this beers too flat."
Try saying that in a Yorkshire tap room.
Can't say I've heard it before.
Try saying that in a Yorkshire tap room.
Can't say I've heard it before.
Yes, more like "can you top this one up".Chuangt2u wrote:"Where's my 'tingle on the tongue' - this beers too flat."
Try saying that in a Yorkshire tap room.
Can't say I've heard it before.
I have given back vinegared pints in Yorkshire, and would do the same with a flat pint.
However "down south" from Yorkshire, they serve real ale without a head, either pulled by handpump, or even served direct by gravity from the cask, I have had ale served by gravity in the Yorkshire Dales, and at Bradford Beer Festival. Whilst it is not sparkling, it is not flat, real ale is a living product.
I think the old style economiser system of beer serving, using the recycling, was banned many years ago due to hygiene reasons, people used to hand back their empty pint glass to be refilled by the barman.
You've got it wrong c2u. British ales ARE carbonated, but to a lower level than for example lagers. Another difference is that lagers are force carbonated with co2 while British ales are cask conditioned.. They are transferred to casks at the end of the fermentation, fining is added and then the casks are bunged. So while the second fermentation/conditioning is happening in the cask co2 is being produced and since the cask is bunged that co2 is trapped in the cask and will within a weeks time naturally carbonate the ale.
I have several Angram handpumps back home that I use to dispense my English ales and while I'm no expert on hand pumps, I've never seen one that is setup to reintroduce the spill back into the pump and into the glass. That sounds absolutely disgusting and I can't imagine anyone wanting to drink such a product. I would certainly refuse to pay for an ale that includes all the crap floating around in the spill tray.
I'm not saying they don't exist, just saying I've never seen one. Maybe that's how they did it back in the day?
Anyway, the reason you think ales are flat is that in the north of England they use sparklers on their hand pumps. Small plastic things you screw on at the end of the faucet. They've got tiny holes in them and when the ale is pushed through these holes the carbonation is knocked out of solution and it causes that cascading effect in the glass similar to a Guinness being poured or a Kilkenny from a can with a widget. Like in that picture you posted. There's no way it will look like that if there was no carbonation in the beer to begin with. When it settles out it creates a thick creamy head of tiny co2 bubbles.. and though it tastes relatively flat it still has some co2 in there. Personally I think serving an ale with a sparkler takes away a lot of the flavor and leaves the ale a little flat and uninteresting but it works for some ales if that's what you're going for.
Like I said earlier though.. I'm no expert on the subject. Just an enthusiast. I think BillyB might know quite a bit more about the serving and drinking of real ale in England than I do..
I have several Angram handpumps back home that I use to dispense my English ales and while I'm no expert on hand pumps, I've never seen one that is setup to reintroduce the spill back into the pump and into the glass. That sounds absolutely disgusting and I can't imagine anyone wanting to drink such a product. I would certainly refuse to pay for an ale that includes all the crap floating around in the spill tray.
I'm not saying they don't exist, just saying I've never seen one. Maybe that's how they did it back in the day?
Anyway, the reason you think ales are flat is that in the north of England they use sparklers on their hand pumps. Small plastic things you screw on at the end of the faucet. They've got tiny holes in them and when the ale is pushed through these holes the carbonation is knocked out of solution and it causes that cascading effect in the glass similar to a Guinness being poured or a Kilkenny from a can with a widget. Like in that picture you posted. There's no way it will look like that if there was no carbonation in the beer to begin with. When it settles out it creates a thick creamy head of tiny co2 bubbles.. and though it tastes relatively flat it still has some co2 in there. Personally I think serving an ale with a sparkler takes away a lot of the flavor and leaves the ale a little flat and uninteresting but it works for some ales if that's what you're going for.
Like I said earlier though.. I'm no expert on the subject. Just an enthusiast. I think BillyB might know quite a bit more about the serving and drinking of real ale in England than I do..
Alcohol is necessary so that a man can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts
Here's a pic of the pump on a CQ I bought used, took apart, cleaned, sanitised, put back together again and am bringing over here to set up in my man cave...
So simple but so effective. It's a thing of beauty. I can't recommend these Angram pumps enough..
This is about all the nuts and bolts there is on this thing :
The hand pumps have to be cleaned and sanitised every night after use though. (Not taken apart of course, just have all the beer inside the lines and pump removed and then run some cleaner and sanitiser through there. ) Can be a pain in the ass if you have one set up in your man cave and all you want is just a couple of pints for your elevenses before going out for a late breakfast.
So simple but so effective. It's a thing of beauty. I can't recommend these Angram pumps enough..
This is about all the nuts and bolts there is on this thing :
The hand pumps have to be cleaned and sanitised every night after use though. (Not taken apart of course, just have all the beer inside the lines and pump removed and then run some cleaner and sanitiser through there. ) Can be a pain in the ass if you have one set up in your man cave and all you want is just a couple of pints for your elevenses before going out for a late breakfast.
Last edited by doktor_d on Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alcohol is necessary so that a man can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts
Petrol Head wrote:....and for the love of god, Dr D, please make and supply beer to a few joints around town.
What can I say, man.. so much beer, so little time! I always seem to be too busy drinking it myself.. Sorry about that
Alcohol is necessary so that a man can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts
Mixed bag of agreement and disagreement, here.doktor_d wrote:You've got it wrong c2u. British ales ARE carbonated, but to a lower level than for example lagers. Another difference is that lagers are force carbonated with co2 while British ales are cask conditioned.. They are transferred to casks at the end of the fermentation, fining is added and then the casks are bunged. So while the second fermentation/conditioning is happening in the cask co2 is being produced and since the cask is bunged that co2 is trapped in the cask and will within a weeks time naturally carbonate the ale.
I have several Angram handpumps back home that I use to dispense my English ales and while I'm no expert on hand pumps, I've never seen one that is setup to reintroduce the spill back into the pump and into the glass. That sounds absolutely disgusting and I can't imagine anyone wanting to drink such a product. I would certainly refuse to pay for an ale that includes all the crap floating around in the spill tray.
I'm not saying they don't exist, just saying I've never seen one. Maybe that's how they did it back in the day?
Anyway, the reason you think ales are flat is that in the north of England they use sparklers on their hand pumps. Small plastic things you screw on at the end of the faucet. They've got tiny holes in them and when the ale is pushed through these holes the carbonation is knocked out of solution and it causes that cascading effect in the glass similar to a Guinness being poured or a Kilkenny from a can with a widget. Like in that picture you posted. There's no way it will look like that if there was no carbonation in the beer to begin with. When it settles out it creates a thick creamy head of tiny co2 bubbles.. and though it tastes relatively flat it still has some co2 in there. Personally I think serving an ale with a sparkler takes away a lot of the flavor and leaves the ale a little flat and uninteresting but it works for some ales if that's what you're going for.
Like I said earlier though.. I'm no expert on the subject. Just an enthusiast. I think BillyB might know quite a bit more about the serving and drinking of real ale in England than I do..
I posted a picture of the pump and a video of it working in a reasonably busy pub.
How it works can clearly be seen, and I commented earlier that the old girl was a little lax in her pulling, in my humble opinion.
It's a commercial device that was and probably still is very popular, as can be seen by looking at the tray below the pump - it's been busy and you can tell that by the amount of foam in the trough.
It's not a spill tray, or a drip tray, or even similar - it's a trough to catch overflow that's deliberately made. The beer cannot return to the barrel as there's a one-way valve in the way.
Spill and drip trays go stale as the beer just sits there, gets warm, and collects crap. The trough on that pump doesn't have the same function, and the beer doesn't just sit there going warm and stale - it's constantly recirculated. That's a critical design point.
1. The pump is designed to allow the creation of a head that will last the depth of the glass. A pint of bitter pulled from that pump by an experienced hand, when settled, will have a 1" thick, domed, very creamy head that will still be 3/4" thick, domed, and very creamy when left sitting in the bottom of the glass when the pint has been drunk, which could be as much as 15 to 20 minutes later, maybe more, and the drink will not taste flat before it's finished, provided it's drunk reasonably soon - before getting 'too warm' would be a fair judge of time for that.
2. The pump is also designed to allow massive agitation of the beer, which livens the drink up and changes the drink's feel.
To achieve both ends, there needs to be a very tight sprinkler, a high force input, and a lot of overflow - several pints worth of overflow - more at the start and finish of a barrel.
Yes, in the north of England they use sprinklers, but on the pump I'm talking about they're not plastic, they're a yellow metal - maybe a brass or bronze - looks the same as the long neck. Plastic sprinklers would break rapidly with the pressures gained when tightened up enough for the job at hand.
If the sprinkler is tight enough, there is no cascading effect, there is a resulting milky liquid that settles slowly into a pint with a head made from air bubbles.
I know where you're coming from with what you're saying, and will post a video to show what you're talking about.
Loose plastic sprinkler, 2 pulls, no overflow, he stops at 13 or 14 seconds. You can see cascading lower down in the glass for a few seconds at the start, and after a minute or so the settling's pretty much done. After 1 minute and maybe 15 seconds, the head is collapsing already, and I'm guessing from past experience that the head will be pretty much gone in under 4 minutes or with 2 or 3 swallows - it certainly won't last the glass or be as creamy as it could be, and the beer will be tasting flat well before the glass is empty or the beer starts to warm up.
The above video matches your description, but is not what I mean by pulling a pint.
Look at my video again.
There's a big difference in the beer in the glass. Even though the lady has pulled a pint too loosely and has it stood waiting next to the pump for her to pull the next one - it's still milky when she caries it over for the old guy. There should be no cascading if the sprinkler is tight enough. The milk settles slowly upward - like fog lifting.
Re unsanitary, yes, used glasses are a problem. They contain dregs and contamination from a drinker's mouth and hand and the bottom of the glass is likely dirty - used glasses shouldn't be used with this pump... needs a fresh glass every time. It also needs barstaff with clean hands.
But the trough itself is fine - it's not like Ebola is doing the ISIS dance in there or anything. Cleaned after every shift, it's not a dirty environment.
Look around the bar, look at the old guy who took the fresh pints, nobody has a problem with the pump - it's perfectly normal and all OK.
This is not disgusting to me or the guys there in that pub drinking the beer - it is a damned good pint when pulled correctly, though. No fizz.
And re carbonation - it's so little as to be barely noticable, right, and it's certainly got no fizz - not even a slight tingle on the tongue after passing through that pump. It's a flat beer, for me.
Last edited by Chuangt2u on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, "Top this up, lad." is common, but only where the staff isn't that experienced or when the barrel's new or going out. Line-fill glasses sort that one out, but then it's harder for the barman to judge the head because the overflow changes. Pull and then top up is not as good as pull and done in one.BillyB wrote:Yes, more like "can you top this one up".Chuangt2u wrote:"Where's my 'tingle on the tongue' - this beers too flat."
Try saying that in a Yorkshire tap room.
Can't say I've heard it before.
I have given back vinegared pints in Yorkshire, and would do the same with a flat pint.
However "down south" from Yorkshire, they serve real ale without a head, either pulled by handpump, or even served direct by gravity from the cask, I have had ale served by gravity in the Yorkshire Dales, and at Bradford Beer Festival. Whilst it is not sparkling, it is not flat, real ale is a living product.
I think the old style economiser system of beer serving, using the recycling, was banned many years ago due to hygiene reasons, people used to hand back their empty pint glass to be refilled by the barman.
Yes, bad pints go back to the bar, but this pump doesn't give flat pints. Vinegar may well be dirty lines, not necessarily the pump or beer, but should be taken back.
Yes, down south from Yorkshire, beer is pulled in different ways, as it is in lots of places.
Yes, it's definitely not sparkling, but isn't more than a tiny whisper if detectably present. Describing it as carbonated would be akin to my describing my rum and raisin chocolate bar as alcoholic - a technical possibility, yes?
The pump is not banned, as far as I know.
Maybe that's how they did it back in the day?
I'm certainly talking Old School. But that's not always a bad thing.banned many years ago
Both of you ought to give it a try should the opportunity arise. Find a busy pub with a foaming trough, and drink the beer while it's still cold. You won't find a creamier pint.
They don't serve it like they did in the old days.
I used to frequent the Shearbridge and Manville pubs on Great Horton road in Bradford, I remember the big troughs of foam, and the fact that the majority of beer overflowed and was recirculated, many pulls of the handpump before the pint glass was full. Tetleys Dark Mild was my regular pint in those days, thought it was often vinegared, things are a lot better now.
One time I fell in the chem-eng cooling pool trying to find my way back to halls of residence, that sobered me up quickly.
I used to frequent the Shearbridge and Manville pubs on Great Horton road in Bradford, I remember the big troughs of foam, and the fact that the majority of beer overflowed and was recirculated, many pulls of the handpump before the pint glass was full. Tetleys Dark Mild was my regular pint in those days, thought it was often vinegared, things are a lot better now.
One time I fell in the chem-eng cooling pool trying to find my way back to halls of residence, that sobered me up quickly.
I was Mech Eng.
The Manville Arms, the Tumble Inn, further away the Vaults, the Fighting Cock and the Frog and Toad - mostly for the music, but also for the imminent threat of violence, for some, forgotten, reason.
Tetleys Mild?
Hell, you were asking for a bad one - that's bitter country.
The Manville Arms, the Tumble Inn, further away the Vaults, the Fighting Cock and the Frog and Toad - mostly for the music, but also for the imminent threat of violence, for some, forgotten, reason.
Tetleys Mild?
Hell, you were asking for a bad one - that's bitter country.
I know there are sparklers made of stainless steel that you can tighten to the point where it's almost impossible to pull a pint through but the pump is still the same. The ale going through is still the same - A cask ale carbonated to a lower level than a lager but still carbonated.
An uncarbonated ale will after fermentation have a level if carbonation of about 1.03 at 13 C. Real ales are usually carbonated to about 1.5-2.0 volumes of co2. A typical lager would be carbonated to a level of 2.5-2.8 volumes of co2. Belgian beers and Weizens up to 4.5-5.0 volumes of co2.
It IS the co2 that causes the foaming effect when you push it through the sparkler. It would not foam like that if the ale was coming out of the cask flat. Believe me, when I got my first hand pump I experimented and tried pulling all kinds of ales/beers through all the different sparklers I could find to see what it did.
Regarding the trough, I had never seen that system of serving and as a homebrewer I'm a little saddened by it.. but I see what you're saying.. still I can honestly say I would never drink an ale treated like that. Even if someone payed me to. Deliberately aerating and degassing a beautiful thing like a cask ale by running it through the glass via a trough over and over again would completely ruin the ale IMO. All the flavors, from the yeast, the flavors and bitterness from the hops and the refreshing bite from the co2.. EVERYTHING I want in a beer is brutally removed and the ale is left all flat and tasteless. No thanks.
Anyway.. back to Five men. Whatever he is serving there is either a Lager which should be clear and sparkling, or some kind of blonde ale which should also be fairly clear and well carbonated. It is neither. It is extremely cloudy and absolutely flat. The dark beer is either some kind of dunkel or schwarzbier which should be a clear brown/black and sparkling or a stout which should be black and well carbonated.. it is not. It is cloudy brown/black and completely flat.
So back to my earlier question : WHY DOES HE NOT SERVE HIS BEER WITH THE PROPER LEVEL OF CARBONATION!!?!?!? It does not make any sense to me.
An uncarbonated ale will after fermentation have a level if carbonation of about 1.03 at 13 C. Real ales are usually carbonated to about 1.5-2.0 volumes of co2. A typical lager would be carbonated to a level of 2.5-2.8 volumes of co2. Belgian beers and Weizens up to 4.5-5.0 volumes of co2.
It IS the co2 that causes the foaming effect when you push it through the sparkler. It would not foam like that if the ale was coming out of the cask flat. Believe me, when I got my first hand pump I experimented and tried pulling all kinds of ales/beers through all the different sparklers I could find to see what it did.
Regarding the trough, I had never seen that system of serving and as a homebrewer I'm a little saddened by it.. but I see what you're saying.. still I can honestly say I would never drink an ale treated like that. Even if someone payed me to. Deliberately aerating and degassing a beautiful thing like a cask ale by running it through the glass via a trough over and over again would completely ruin the ale IMO. All the flavors, from the yeast, the flavors and bitterness from the hops and the refreshing bite from the co2.. EVERYTHING I want in a beer is brutally removed and the ale is left all flat and tasteless. No thanks.
Anyway.. back to Five men. Whatever he is serving there is either a Lager which should be clear and sparkling, or some kind of blonde ale which should also be fairly clear and well carbonated. It is neither. It is extremely cloudy and absolutely flat. The dark beer is either some kind of dunkel or schwarzbier which should be a clear brown/black and sparkling or a stout which should be black and well carbonated.. it is not. It is cloudy brown/black and completely flat.
So back to my earlier question : WHY DOES HE NOT SERVE HIS BEER WITH THE PROPER LEVEL OF CARBONATION!!?!?!? It does not make any sense to me.
Alcohol is necessary so that a man can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts
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