Five Men Beer
You should try it sometime.
I mentioned this in response to comments that his beer is flat, and said that perhaps he should try a different pump if customers are not happy with the product. The pump I mentioned was immensely popular - and yes, that was 'back in the day', I suppose.
As a student, I worked as a barman 5 or 6 nights a week for the extra cash. The wage was £6 a night, and the beer was 56p a pint, rising to 62p, iirc. The £30 or so a week I made more than paid for a heavy night out on the lash and all the chips I could eat.
Friday, and Saturday nights were the busiest, with a nod to the occasional busy Thursday.
We had a team of 6 on the bar at weekends. It was regularly so busy we couldn't get out of the bar area to collect glasses and so served a forest of arms reaching over the bar - all holding their empty glasses to trade for a new one. The pub got so packed that, occasionally, items like 10 seater copper-topped round tables would be stolen from within metres of the bar and you literally wouldn't see it happening.
I pulled hundreds of pints on a busy night, more at times like NYE and after a sports win, and I worked there for years. I don't know how many customers that was, but that was just the one pub, and there were a whole lot more pubs around than there are today that were just the same. That's a huge amount of beer pulled and drunk.
Same as the rest of us, you've had your own experiences leading to your preferences and likes / dislikes, and you have your own understandings and ways of doing things, but you shouldn't knock this based just on the idea of it, because it's just a way to serve a drink, one of many ways.
It was (is?) very very popular, and for good reason - the beer tasted excellent.
Unless you were drinking Tetley's Mild. That was never good. Sorry Bill.
I mentioned this in response to comments that his beer is flat, and said that perhaps he should try a different pump if customers are not happy with the product. The pump I mentioned was immensely popular - and yes, that was 'back in the day', I suppose.
As a student, I worked as a barman 5 or 6 nights a week for the extra cash. The wage was £6 a night, and the beer was 56p a pint, rising to 62p, iirc. The £30 or so a week I made more than paid for a heavy night out on the lash and all the chips I could eat.
Friday, and Saturday nights were the busiest, with a nod to the occasional busy Thursday.
We had a team of 6 on the bar at weekends. It was regularly so busy we couldn't get out of the bar area to collect glasses and so served a forest of arms reaching over the bar - all holding their empty glasses to trade for a new one. The pub got so packed that, occasionally, items like 10 seater copper-topped round tables would be stolen from within metres of the bar and you literally wouldn't see it happening.
I pulled hundreds of pints on a busy night, more at times like NYE and after a sports win, and I worked there for years. I don't know how many customers that was, but that was just the one pub, and there were a whole lot more pubs around than there are today that were just the same. That's a huge amount of beer pulled and drunk.
Same as the rest of us, you've had your own experiences leading to your preferences and likes / dislikes, and you have your own understandings and ways of doing things, but you shouldn't knock this based just on the idea of it, because it's just a way to serve a drink, one of many ways.
It was (is?) very very popular, and for good reason - the beer tasted excellent.
Unless you were drinking Tetley's Mild. That was never good. Sorry Bill.
I like a pint of Directors but usually it's Guinness (not that extra cold stuff).
They serve Guinness a lot quicker now. Did they change the recipe or was it just the tech changed?
They serve Guinness a lot quicker now. Did they change the recipe or was it just the tech changed?
pew, pew, pew, pew!
I haven't had draught Guinness in over a decade, so no idea about that one.
To make the beer move, you need to stab at a few swift one-arm pull ups against your bodyweight - that'll get things moving, and once moving it's easier to continue. Move your feet back out from under the trough and use your body weight to pull the beer through by bending the knees, leaning back, and affecting a kind of a 'shoulder curl' in that you don't pull straight, your shoulder moves around the arc of the pump's movement in a circular type of curve - hard to explain - easy when you've got the knack.
The pump is not the same. Take a look again. There's a pipe from the trough back to the line.
This sparkler's not yellow metal - not sure what it is, looks like a silver-grey metal, not chrome, maybe stainless... but never plastic as that would soon break.
That's it - sprinkler tightened up until you can hold the pump handle near the top, put your feet under the trough, and lean back at 45 degrees - hanging from the pump handle on a straight arm... and the beer barely flows when you do that.doktor_d wrote:I know there are sparklers made of stainless steel that you can tighten to the point where it's almost impossible to pull a pint through but the pump is still the same.
To make the beer move, you need to stab at a few swift one-arm pull ups against your bodyweight - that'll get things moving, and once moving it's easier to continue. Move your feet back out from under the trough and use your body weight to pull the beer through by bending the knees, leaning back, and affecting a kind of a 'shoulder curl' in that you don't pull straight, your shoulder moves around the arc of the pump's movement in a circular type of curve - hard to explain - easy when you've got the knack.
The pump is not the same. Take a look again. There's a pipe from the trough back to the line.
This sparkler's not yellow metal - not sure what it is, looks like a silver-grey metal, not chrome, maybe stainless... but never plastic as that would soon break.
I remember those pumps. I always wondered why nothing much happened at the pint end when there was so much going on with the lever/bar maid!
It's then I doubted Newtons third law but now I'm happy with it knowing the facts.
It's then I doubted Newtons third law but now I'm happy with it knowing the facts.
pew, pew, pew, pew!
I have a pump EXACTLY like that. That's an Angram CO hand pump. The only difference is the trough and the stuff connected to it. My pump (bought new, directly from Angram in England) has a drip tray with room for a glass on the side so you could let it settle while you pour the next pint. I've never seen one of those troughs for sale anywhere. They're not in any of my books about real ale and like I said, until you told me about it, I had never heard of real ale/cask ale being served in that manner.Chuangt2u wrote: The pump is not the same. Take a look again. There's a pipe from the trough back to the line.
This sparkler's not yellow metal - not sure what it is, looks like a silver-grey metal, not chrome, maybe stainless... but never plastic as that would soon break.
Her is a picture of the Angram CO pump. It has the same drip tray I have on mine:
The Angram pump on your picture has a stainless steel northern "swan neck" nozzle with the sparkler removed. You can put whatever sparkler you want on there. A tight northern sparkler, a medium sparkler, or a loose southern sparkler. Or you could use it without a sparkler as I do and lots of places in the south of England also do afaik. You could also put that stainless steel sparkler you're talking about on there, but I've never seen one for sale so I haven't tried that.
Other nozzles available from Angram:
Like I said earlier, I get what you're talking about and maybe I shouldn't judge that way of serving before I've tried it but it goes against everything I know about beer and brewing and everything I've ever read about how to handle a beer/ale.
I imagine it will strip everything out of an ale and leave it tasting like Kilkenny does when poured from a can with a widget.. meaning watery, flat and rather uninteresting. Sure, I can drink it if it's offered to me.. There aren't many beers/ales I couldn't drink. . But I think ales/beers like that are rather boring. Much like drinking an ice cold, uncarbonated beer at Five men.
I prefer more flavorful types of ales that have a slightly bitter kick to them with an earthy, floral, slightly citrusy aftertaste from the hops combined with the stonefruity, estery flavors from the English ale yeasts. That and of course the bite from the low but very present co2 in there
Alcohol is necessary so that a man can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts
When I started in Bradford I was horrified that beer cost 32p per pint and tasted shite, it was 28p in my home town.Chuangt2u wrote:Unless you were drinking Tetley's Mild. That was never good. Sorry Bill.
Tetleys dark mild was the best of the bunch for flavour in my opinion, there was little choice at the time. Unfortunately they later changed the recipe to a light mild and it lost its popularity as mild beers were phased out in favour of stronger ales.
At the time "The Fighting Cock" was still called "The Preston", and sold Websters keg, but had few customers. Then Jim took it over and re-opened it as "The Fighting Cock", selling a wide range of real ales and ciders never seen in Bradford before. He was ahead of his time and the idea was soon copied by others. Unfortunately his missis took off with a toyboy who used to ponce around in a string vest, the business folded, and was sold to new owners, but the good beers continue.
When the Fighting Cock first opened they sprinkled sawdust on the floor for effect, but I believe that health and safety stopped that because people were urinating in the sacks of fresh sawdust stored out back.
That's before my time, Bill.
I didn't know about the older, dark mild; the string vest toyboy; or the damp sawdust.
I didn't know about the older, dark mild; the string vest toyboy; or the damp sawdust.
It's not the same pump, and it's not an Angram. It's an Autovac. There's a difference in the mechanism in that there's a float that allows the beer in the trough to recycle, but not return down the beer line to the barrel. It may look the same cosmetically, but it's not the same at all.doktor_d wrote:I have a pump EXACTLY like that. That's an Angram CO hand pump. The only difference is the trough and the stuff connected to it.Chuangt2u wrote: The pump is not the same. Take a look again. There's a pipe from the trough back to the line.
This sparkler's not yellow metal - not sure what it is, looks like a silver-grey metal, not chrome, maybe stainless... but never plastic as that would soon break.
No, the sprinkler / sparkler is there. It's a small unit - much smaller than the plastic ones - not the same at all. It fits closely and has a crosshatch milled outer surface - you can see the threads of the neck end above the sprinkler in the photo.The Angram pump on your picture has a stainless steel northern "swan neck" nozzle with the sparkler removed.
Ermm, you miss the point. Tightness refers to how much the sprinkler is screwed onto the neck. Imagine putting a nut onto a bolt... loose would be spinning freely, tight would be with the nut next to the head and then would require a little force to begin to push the nut into the bold head - finger tight - no spanners. If the gap between nut and bolt head is closed completely, then no beer flows at all. The trick is to get the sprinkler almost closed ( as in the nut tight against the bolt head) but allow just enough space for a little beer to flow through a tiny gap... then crank in a large force at the pump handle and crush the beer through that tiny gap. There can be 'too tight' (no beer, or beer that takes 15 minutes to settle and has a 6" head) and 'too loose' (no good head and no smooth pint).You can put whatever sparkler you want on there. A tight northern sparkler, a medium sparkler, or a loose southern sparkler.
There is no 'southern' and 'northern' sprinkler, afaik.
A picture with a few notes might help.
What I'm saying is that the trough with the line that reintroduces the slop, the banana flies, the nutsack and ass juice from the bartenders fingers and all the other crap floating around in that trough back into the system through that one way t-coupler thingie and into the unfortunate next customers beer is the"autovac system" while the pump is an Angram CO pump. If that is not an Angram pump, I'd be very surprised to find out why Angram has not sued the Autovac people as it's absolutely identical to the Angram pumps. At least based on what I can see from the pictures and my experience from taking apart 3 different Angram pumps, cleaning them and changing gaskets several times over the years. I also have a bag of 20 or so plastic sparklers.3 different types. All plastic. All bought from Angram. Online they are referred to as northern tight, medium and southern loose. They are all screwed all the way on to the nozzle. Tightly. If not beer would leak out the sides. There might be a stainless sparkler on that picture but it's too small and grainy to see.
I'm not saying you don't know the system you've been handling everyday back in the 60s or 70s or when it might have been, but that things might have changed a bit since then and the stuff that's available today is a bit different then it was back in the day.
Here's a quote though from the blog you found that picture:
Anyway.. I believe it now, but It seems we just disagree on how best to serve a pint and on how a pint of ale should taste. And maybe on what type of pump that is on that picture you posted.
Let's just agree to disagree
I'm not saying you don't know the system you've been handling everyday back in the 60s or 70s or when it might have been, but that things might have changed a bit since then and the stuff that's available today is a bit different then it was back in the day.
Here's a quote though from the blog you found that picture:
Kind of sums up what I first thought when you started explaining about the recirculating slops system.. I couldn't believe such a system existed.With the modern emphasis on health and safety, you'd think such practices would have died out, and they mostly have. One exception still exists: the autovac. I was reminded of this device's existence by a recent post on Tandleman's beer blog. The autovac automatically drains the beer in the drip tray back to the lines for recycling into the next customer's pint. I regard this as a disgusting practice as the beer will have run over the pourer's hands and the outside of the glass before reaching the drip tray. If just one dirty glass is reused, the beer is contaminated. But it goes further than that: the beer will be contaminated anyway if the bar staff's hands aren't spotlessly clean, which is impossible unless they wash their hands every single time they use the till, handle money, wipe tables and collect dirty glasses. If a barman dipped his finger into your pint as he gave it to you, you'd probably refuse to accept it, but that is precisely what happens with the autovac.
I'm surprised the autovac isn't illegal. I understand that pubs where it is still used, which are mostly in Yorkshire, are obliged to use a clean glass every time, but that only addresses one of the problems, and not even that if busy bar staff succumb to a drinker's demand to reuse the same glass. I've been even more surprised when some Yorkshire real ale drinkers, even CAMRA members, have defended the autovac, seeing it as essential to the alleged unique qualities of the Yorkshire pint. This is nonsense: health objections aside, I am utterly unable to see how returning beer that has already been poured, and thus lost some of its condition, into fresh beer will improve the quality of the next pint, and I've never seen any explanation how it would. In fact, you'd get a pint that, despite a thick, foamy head, has less condition, i.e. it's more flat. But then, there's none so blind as those who will not see.
Anyway.. I believe it now, but It seems we just disagree on how best to serve a pint and on how a pint of ale should taste. And maybe on what type of pump that is on that picture you posted.
Let's just agree to disagree
Alcohol is necessary so that a man can have a good opinion of himself, undisturbed by the facts
Yeah, you'll find food scares and commentary online from those who don't like the idea and probably have never seen it working. Much as you have, they get caught up in their imagination of what they think it's going to be like then boot the idea without ever trying it.
Page 32 of a Yorkshire 'taverners' ' publication, which is a CAMRA affiliated magazine, ran this tale last year - (note this shows that the health and safely police have not banned the pump, which they would if it were any type of hazard) :
Page 32 of a Yorkshire 'taverners' ' publication, which is a CAMRA affiliated magazine, ran this tale last year - (note this shows that the health and safely police have not banned the pump, which they would if it were any type of hazard) :
Download link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 1844,d.dGoWhy are you making such a fuss?
My view on the auto vac,
by Sean Garvey.
It has come to my attention that certainCAMRA members have a dislike to auto vacs. So they are petitioning for pubs with auto vacs to
have a symbol in the Good Beer Guide to identify this abomination to ale. You really should get a life! Why am I being so shirty with you? Because once again you’re causing a fuss over something which is working. You’re causing problems where there are none. And most importantly you’re on about something you know nothing about. So let me educate you in the world of owning successful pubs.
...
3, The auto vac.
Big issues with this 20 years ago when everybody re-used the same glass, but environmental health and personal hygiene / cleanliness have changed. Cellars are clean and tidy, lines are cleaned weekly and clean, cold glasses are used every time - by law.
The auto vac pan / float are cleaned daily, or more often when ale is changed. The auto vac works with the quarter-pull
cylinder. The first pull is the most important, getting life into that pint. Constant pulls working the liquid (you can feel it even
though it’s in the glass) and the ale forms a creamy pint with a 5mm head when settled (lovely).
The overflowing liquid drops into the steel pan straight into the quarter-pull cylinder and into the clean, cold glass so there is no wastage.
All you are doing is working the pint, a method used since engineer Joseph Bramah created the beer engine on May 9 1797.
So what’s your problem?
On Saturday 15th February 2014, I had two CAMRA members in the AWARD-WINNING NEW INN DENHOLME BD134JT.
I pulled a pint four pulls to the top, I then pulled auto vac style eight, maybe ten, pulls. Not only did the pint look better, it held its body to the bottom of the glass and the two CAMRA members were astounded.
They could see the pride in my work and what I had created. The difference in the two different ways the same beer was pulled was worlds apart.
Now I personally think this system is by far the best, I have it in all three pubs. And because I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is I spent over £2000 installing it into Dirty Dicks Ale house and after 12 months it had won two beer awards.
I willingly paid this because I have so much faith in it. I drink from this system, Kirsty drinks from this system, all my lovely customers drink from this system. A system which has saved three pubs and turned them into award-winning ale houses.
So what’s your problem?
I’ll tell you shall I?
YOUR Personal Cleanliness and Hygiene,
If your pub / lines / dispensing equipment isn’t clean and hygienic, then you’re not fit for the job. It will reflect on the products / taste which will lead to complaints, loss of sale and, thankfully, closure.
Don’t tar me with the same brush as others.
Finally, will a little symbol in the Good Beer Guide identifying pubs which use auto vacs make a blind bit of difference to my business which uses them? Not in the slightest, so what a waste of time and effort on your part as a Campaign.
Well done!
THE END
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- Damn, I just saw my Internet Bill !
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Jesus this thread makes my head spin with all the technical stuff. Chuang, have you had one of their beers? I've never been to Yorkshire, but I've never had a beer so flat as the ones I had there. It might as well had been flavoured tap water. Is there any beer in the world that's supposed to be that flat?
Anyways, when are we getting invites to this man cave of yours doc?
Anyways, when are we getting invites to this man cave of yours doc?
this is worth downloading and looking through if your a beer fanDownload link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 1844,d.dGo
reads like a small-town festival program and the advertising is killer niche funny
they obviously like their beers
I joined this thread to suggest that the 5 Men guy should perhaps think about how he's serving the beer if he's getting complaints about flatness, and one way to do that is to look into different types of pumps and serving mechanisms. From personal experience, I'd suggest taking a look at the autovac for uncarbonated (or very slightly carbonated) beers.
I didn't intend to get embroiled in an argument and am not interested in continuing one - I'd rather look for the mis-communication or misunderstanding that;'s causing the problem
Here's one.
That is definitely the sprinkler/sparkler in my photo. No doubt at all - I used one for years, and that one's silver instead of yellow metal is all.
There used to be some little skill and personal preference in setting the tightness - the choice was down to the barstaff pulling the pint and the preference of the customer. Closed tighter for a creamier/deeper long-lasting head and smoother pint - opened up for a loose, frothy head that broke down quickly and a body not so smooth. This sparkler is 'infinitely' variable.
My guess is that at some point, someone decided to make a product that standardised the gap that the beer flows through in a sprinkler. Someone standardised the "tightness" I'm talking about. Instead of the barman setting up what he judges to be the right gap by fully tightening, then backing off 1/16 turn or less, which could introduce many variables, I'm guessing an inventive soul made a product that contains a measured gap, but is fully cranked onto the neck. I'll say they made a bunch of different gap sizes, all of which are tightened right up onto the neck. Then they gave those set gaps names and marketed them as "Northern tight", "Southern loose", and probably more.
Seems that in the same way BillyB's experience of The Fighting Cock was before my time, my experience of the mechanics of pulling a pint were before your time, doc. Things have changed.
Next to address the criticism that many who haven't used the autovac, or seen one used make, and it's in your earlier quote, doc.
1. Get a pint glass and fill it with water. Put it on a table.
2. With your right hand, pick up the glass and pour half of the water out - onto the floor or into a bucket or whatever.
2a. Fill the glass again, but this time pour the water out with your left hand.
3. Did you get either hand wet when you poured the water?
4. Of course you didn't.
Nobody would pour the water over the back of his own hand or across his own fingers. You held the glass in such a way as to pour the water without getting wet, didn't you? This is pretty much the same as using the autovac pump, only it's a little fiddlier when finishing the pull and needs some practice. Basically, you don't need to get your hands wet with the beer.
Lexus, I avoid Toul Sleng like the plague unless going to Beautiful Shoes or to see Two. I don't like the vibe around the museum at all wouldn't ever think of hanging around there for beers - but I'll drop around in the near future and give their beer a try.
I didn't intend to get embroiled in an argument and am not interested in continuing one - I'd rather look for the mis-communication or misunderstanding that;'s causing the problem
Here's one.
After a night's sleep to get the idea settled, I'm going to make a guess on this.doc wrote:I also have a bag of 20 or so plastic sparklers.3 different types. All plastic. All bought from Angram. Online they are referred to as northern tight, medium and southern loose. They are all screwed all the way on to the nozzle. Tightly. If not beer would leak out the sides. There might be a stainless sparkler on that picture but it's too small and grainy to see.
That is definitely the sprinkler/sparkler in my photo. No doubt at all - I used one for years, and that one's silver instead of yellow metal is all.
There used to be some little skill and personal preference in setting the tightness - the choice was down to the barstaff pulling the pint and the preference of the customer. Closed tighter for a creamier/deeper long-lasting head and smoother pint - opened up for a loose, frothy head that broke down quickly and a body not so smooth. This sparkler is 'infinitely' variable.
My guess is that at some point, someone decided to make a product that standardised the gap that the beer flows through in a sprinkler. Someone standardised the "tightness" I'm talking about. Instead of the barman setting up what he judges to be the right gap by fully tightening, then backing off 1/16 turn or less, which could introduce many variables, I'm guessing an inventive soul made a product that contains a measured gap, but is fully cranked onto the neck. I'll say they made a bunch of different gap sizes, all of which are tightened right up onto the neck. Then they gave those set gaps names and marketed them as "Northern tight", "Southern loose", and probably more.
Precisely. That's how the flow was controlled - it leaked through the gap left by not fully cranking the sprinkler onto the neck. In your collection, it seems that the gap/tightness that we used to judge and set by experience has been replaced by a machined gap set in the new product, and that gap can't be adjusted - you need to change the sprinkler to change the gap. The old way was very variable - that range of choice has been removed from your pump by the guys who made your sprinklers. I'm not sure I like the idea of cutting out the fine adjustment and replacing it with a set gap. It seems to me a step backwards in design to disallow the server to choose what to do with the sprinkler beyond swap it out for another set choice.Tightly. If not beer would leak out the sides.
Seems that in the same way BillyB's experience of The Fighting Cock was before my time, my experience of the mechanics of pulling a pint were before your time, doc. Things have changed.
Next to address the criticism that many who haven't used the autovac, or seen one used make, and it's in your earlier quote, doc.
This is a simple one to cover and anyone reading this can follow to see what I mean.I regard this as a disgusting practice as the beer will have run over the pourer's hands and the outside of the glass before reaching the drip tray.
...
the beer will be contaminated anyway if the bar staff's hands aren't spotlessly clean, which is impossible unless they wash their hands every single time they use the till, handle money, wipe tables and collect dirty glasses. If a barman dipped his finger into your pint as he gave it to you, you'd probably refuse to accept it, but that is precisely what happens with the autovac.
1. Get a pint glass and fill it with water. Put it on a table.
2. With your right hand, pick up the glass and pour half of the water out - onto the floor or into a bucket or whatever.
2a. Fill the glass again, but this time pour the water out with your left hand.
3. Did you get either hand wet when you poured the water?
4. Of course you didn't.
Nobody would pour the water over the back of his own hand or across his own fingers. You held the glass in such a way as to pour the water without getting wet, didn't you? This is pretty much the same as using the autovac pump, only it's a little fiddlier when finishing the pull and needs some practice. Basically, you don't need to get your hands wet with the beer.
No worries, can do.Let's just agree to disagree
Lexus, I avoid Toul Sleng like the plague unless going to Beautiful Shoes or to see Two. I don't like the vibe around the museum at all wouldn't ever think of hanging around there for beers - but I'll drop around in the near future and give their beer a try.
Beyond the 'slight tingle on the tongue' - the only permissible fkn fizz in beer would be this, imho:
Enjoy
Cheers
C
Enjoy
Cheers
C
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