Cambodian boxing 1920 photos
-
- I've got nothing better to do
- Reactions: 5
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:09 am
[/quote]
Truly we don't have an answer but all I can say is it still remains a mystery about Kard cheuk. I do agree on you about Yunnan. There isn't any historical evidence of the Shan martial art "Lai Tai" from chinese historical sources. I know the word "Lai" in the laotian language means "style". I not too familiar with the Shan language but my have too check it out. I did see some Muay Lao Lai photos and videos around the internet that resemble Cambodian martial art. I think there's a picture in the Muay Lao Wikipedia page where the two guys doing like stretches. That is a type of warm up stretch used for training wrestling.
[/quote]
Also Laos has Khmer origin, and explains how the Lao people adopted Cambodian fighting. Fa Ngum, the founder of Lan Xang (Laos) was married with the daughter of the Khmer king and went with a army from Cambodia to conquer what became Lan Xang. It is therefore no surprise that Cambodian fighting was transplanted to Laos and became Muay Lao.
The history of Laos in the following centuries was strongly tied to the Khmer royal court as well with many intermarriages between the royalty and a lot of exchange of religious culture. It once again shows that Tai/Thai people adopted a lot of their culture from Cambodia (as well as from Mon people). When looking at all the Tai/Thai people in the countries where they didn't come in touch with Khmer culture, we not see a trace of South East Asian fighting.
For instance, the Tai people in Vietnam don't practice any martial art, the Tai people in China don't pratcice any martial art (other then some Kung Fu styles), the Tai people of Myanmar don't practice any martial art (Lethwei is primarily practiced by the Mon people in south, and by Burmese people from the south who most likely adopted it from the Mon, but not by the Tai tribes who live in northeastern Myanmar).
Which Tai people do practice South East Asian fighting? Lao people and Thai people; the only Tai tribes to have Khmer origin (the first Tai states of Sukhothai and Lan Xang both have Khmer origin).
Truly we don't have an answer but all I can say is it still remains a mystery about Kard cheuk. I do agree on you about Yunnan. There isn't any historical evidence of the Shan martial art "Lai Tai" from chinese historical sources. I know the word "Lai" in the laotian language means "style". I not too familiar with the Shan language but my have too check it out. I did see some Muay Lao Lai photos and videos around the internet that resemble Cambodian martial art. I think there's a picture in the Muay Lao Wikipedia page where the two guys doing like stretches. That is a type of warm up stretch used for training wrestling.
[/quote]
Also Laos has Khmer origin, and explains how the Lao people adopted Cambodian fighting. Fa Ngum, the founder of Lan Xang (Laos) was married with the daughter of the Khmer king and went with a army from Cambodia to conquer what became Lan Xang. It is therefore no surprise that Cambodian fighting was transplanted to Laos and became Muay Lao.
The history of Laos in the following centuries was strongly tied to the Khmer royal court as well with many intermarriages between the royalty and a lot of exchange of religious culture. It once again shows that Tai/Thai people adopted a lot of their culture from Cambodia (as well as from Mon people). When looking at all the Tai/Thai people in the countries where they didn't come in touch with Khmer culture, we not see a trace of South East Asian fighting.
For instance, the Tai people in Vietnam don't practice any martial art, the Tai people in China don't pratcice any martial art (other then some Kung Fu styles), the Tai people of Myanmar don't practice any martial art (Lethwei is primarily practiced by the Mon people in south, and by Burmese people from the south who most likely adopted it from the Mon, but not by the Tai tribes who live in northeastern Myanmar).
Which Tai people do practice South East Asian fighting? Lao people and Thai people; the only Tai tribes to have Khmer origin (the first Tai states of Sukhothai and Lan Xang both have Khmer origin).
Truly we don't have an answer but all I can say is it still remains a mystery about Kard cheuk. I do agree on you about Yunnan. There isn't any historical evidence of the Shan martial art "Lai Tai" from chinese historical sources. I know the word "Lai" in the laotian language means "style". I not too familiar with the Shan language but my have too check it out. I did see some Muay Lao Lai photos and videos around the internet that resemble Cambodian martial art. I think there's a picture in the Muay Lao Wikipedia page where the two guys doing like stretches. That is a type of warm up stretch used for training wrestling.
[/quote]
Also Laos has Khmer origin, and explains how the Lao people adopted Cambodian fighting. Fa Ngum, the founder of Lan Xang (Laos) was married with the daughter of the Khmer king and went with a army from Cambodia to conquer what became Lan Xang. It is therefore no surprise that Cambodian fighting was transplanted to Laos and became Muay Lao.
The history of Laos in the following centuries was strongly tied to the Khmer royal court as well with many intermarriages between the royalty and a lot of exchange of religious culture. It once again shows that Tai/Thai people adopted a lot of their culture from Cambodia (as well as from Mon people). When looking at all the Tai/Thai people in the countries where they didn't come in touch with Khmer culture, we not see a trace of South East Asian fighting.
For instance, the Tai people in Vietnam don't practice any martial art, the Tai people in China don't pratcice any martial art (other then some Kung Fu styles), the Tai people of Myanmar don't practice any martial art (Lethwei is primarily practiced by the Mon people in south, and by Burmese people from the south who most likely adopted it from the Mon, but not by the Tai tribes who live in northeastern Myanmar).
Which Tai people do practice South East Asian fighting? Lao people and Thai people; the only Tai tribes to have Khmer origin (the first Tai states of Sukhothai and Lan Xang both have Khmer origin).
[/quote]
I have not really dig into the Khun Borom legend and Laos history. I do remember reading something about the Khmer princess but she died due to a sickness. Don't know if the story is legit or not. As for Laos about the martial art, I totally agree with you. I guess the Tai that migrated didn't have their own form of martial art then.
Question about the mongkhol/mongkhon: it looks like a couple of the Khmer fighters in the pictures above are actually wearing one. In Khmer, it literally means good fortune or blessing (មង្គល). Nowadays Cambodian fighters just wear a headband with a flag on it in the name of nationalism. Is it maybe just a modern thing that the headband is only found in Thailand?
[/quote]
From the pictures, I have to assume it was a common feature of both the Khmer fighters who assimilated in Thailand, and also of the Khmer people of Cambodia.
Yes, you are totally right about the Mongkhol. The word is undoubtedly of Khmer origin, and it also means 'magic (rite)'. Robes/cloths hold a special magical value within the culture of ancient Cambodia until this day. Ancient robes were used as a form of spiritual protection and believed to guard the person when in battle. I have added a picture of the ancient Khmer elite warriors of Angkor who wore these robes. You can see they wear them crosswise around their chest.
That certain types of cloth hold magical value was also the case with the well-known 'Krama' scarf (ក្រមា).
The Thai people have their own version, which uses a greater variety of color, and more elaborate dsigns. It's called the Pahkahma (ผ้าขาวม้า). It is especially worn by the ethnic Khmers of Isan region, but also adopted by a lot of other local groups, who adopted the practice from the ethnic Khmer people.
It is said that it was customary for these scarfs to be worn by the soldiers when they had to go into battle. The colors and designs of the different pieces of cloth represented different communities, and it was worn for good luck and protection. I think it is therefore no coincidence that the scarf has been worn by the Khmer soldiers. Other than that, it is of course a very practical piece of cloth in the landscape ot Thailand and Cambodia to carry something, wipe the sweat away, cover against the sun, or to keep warm at night.
The magical affinity with robes is still strongly present, especially among the rural people of Thailand and Laos. There it is customary to give a white thread to family members after they visited for good luck and protection. It is called "saisin" (สายสิญจน์). A picture is shown below. It is also still customary among all Thais to wear it after a wedding.
It shows how much value the ancient Khmer people of Thailand and Cambodia put in the supernatural power of the blessed robes and threads. I guess the Mongkon is just one version of this superstition in regards to battle and fighting. Most likely it was customary to bless all the threads around the hands and head when going into battle by the village monk, and was named 'Mongkon' as it was associated with blessing and magic. Since the bondage of the hands was replaced by Western boxing gloves, and since the head is the most holy place of the human body, the Mongkon was most likely preserved as a magical object in Muay Thai until modern times. I'm sure originally it was worn during battle as we can see in the picture of the Cambodian fighter, but became a ritualistic pbject that was only worn before a fight because of practical reasons.
I am curious then how the Mongkon was replaced in Cambodia by the headband with the national flag. I know that Buddhists were forbidden by the monarchy to carry out Sak Yant tattooing in the 19th century, while in Thailand this never became illegal by the monks. This new law could have been a factor in also losing other cultural elements that were associated with battle and warriorship.
There were many rebellions by the commoner communities against the monarchy in both Thailand and Cambodia who used magical practices to favor them in battle. It is therefore possible that the magic robes/threads that were associated with fighting, like the Mongkon, also lost importance, especially when it became seen as opposing to the more modern Buddhist faith of the elites, which wanted (the commoners) to step away from magical practices in regards to rebellions.
[/quote]
That last bit about the monarchy outlawing these practices is real interesting and seems plausible as reason that we don't anymore in Cambodia. Thanks!
I felt like that's the only picture out there around the 60's or early 70's. I would love to see some more old photos in that era.
Seriously, I wonder who took those photos. Thank you for sharing it. I believe the area could be in Angkor by the Terrace of the Elephants. I wouldn't think it could be in the city of Phnom Penh.The Steve wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:29 pm1965, outside the Royal Palace
https://cne.wtf/2019/12/15/random-photo ... -cambodia/
Oh yeah that's definitely the elephant terrace. The roofed structures are no longer there but the stones give it away. Angkorian kings would supposedly watch tournaments or enjoy the view of his armies from that location. Seems they were trying to keep that tradition alive from the looks of these pictures!
bdbsvay wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:03 amOh yeah that's definitely the elephant terrace. The roofed structures are no longer there but the stones give it away. Angkorian kings would supposedly watch tournaments or enjoy the view of his armies from that location. Seems they were trying to keep that tradition alive from the looks of these pictures!
The image is quite small but I found this image who was the Head coach of the Cambodian Boxing team and Vice-president of the Cambodian Martial Art council from 1970-1974. His name is Nosar Neang. He was a Kun Khmer fighter back in the 1960's and he was schedule to fight a Vietnamese fighter who does "Vo Tu Do" which is Southern Vietnamese kickboxing or Free fighting. The match was cancelled because both fighters know "Thất Sơn Thần Quyền" meaning magic. I drop a url link. It's in Vietnamese language but if you google translated it roughly in english.
http://www.vncgarden.com/lich-su-giai-t ... nthanquyen
These shots were taken at Battambang, an area once governed by Siam. A strong muaythai culture was there for over 100 years even before the French protectorate had begun. So, one cannot say these were Thais or Cambodian. I know with record that Thais fought there on many occasions well into the 1930's.
Alexandre Breck. You should read most of SEAhistory his information is clearly spot-on especially on Muay Thai origin.
Before the Thai, Battambang is an ethnic Pearic territory. When the Khmer expanded their kingdom to Northeast Cambodia they start to mingle with the pearic. The samre (Pearic group) were considered fierce warriors even before and after the fall of Angkor.
In the picture with an assumption, I could say these men are mixed but it could be pearic men.Alexandre Breck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:15 amThese shots were taken at Battambang, an area once governed by Siam. A strong muaythai culture was there for over 100 years even before the French protectorate had begun. So, one cannot say these were Thais or Cambodian. I know with record that Thais fought there on many occasions well into the 1930's.
Battambang was originally served as an economic hub and a buffer zone since the 1830s. There aren't any records of how many Thai and Lao was living in Cambodia. According to Thai account they did record a large Khmer population, second was the Chinese, third was the Viets. Phnom Penh had a lesser khmer population due to the Viet domination.
According to Bun Srun Theam paper "Cambodia in the mid-nineteenth century" he quoted in his words on page 14.
"The origin of the Thai settlers in Cambodia was not clear. They were probably descendants
and remnants of those who were sent in by the Thai court as personal
guards or slaves for the Kings of Cambodia during the last few
centuries. As far as the Lao were concerned, they were descendants
of those exiles who took refuge along with their king and the Lao
royal family in 1705 at the Cambodian court as the result of a
rebellion in their country. Unlike the Vietnamese, the number
of the Thai minority did not increase and there is no mention in the
sources that they had moved in to settle in Cambodia during the
nineteenth century. On the contrary, their armies carried off
Cambodian inhabitants of the regions through which they passed in
their retreat from Cambodia, for example, in their expeditions in
1812-13 and 1833-34. The Thai and Lao readily assimilated with the
local people because they were Buddhists like the Khmers."
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
-
Cambodian women post swimwear photos to protest law on how they dress
by Bong Burgundy » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:20 am » in Cambodia News - 10 Replies
- 4395 Views
-
Last post by trickydicky
Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:48 am
-
-
-
Where can i find boxing gym ? in sihanoukville
by mrhero133 » Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:47 pm » in Questions and Answers - 0 Replies
- 4934 Views
-
Last post by mrhero133
Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:47 pm
-
-
-
Brazilian kickboxer gets $$$ and possible citizenship after Thai boxing row
by Bong Burgundy » Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:54 pm » in Cambodia News - 18 Replies
- 1786 Views
-
Last post by Bong Burgundy
Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:50 am
-
-
-
Crocodiles kicked and boxing orangutans at Phnom Penh Safari Park
by Bong Burgundy » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:12 pm » in Cambodia News - 2 Replies
- 2694 Views
-
Last post by Earth dump
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:28 am
-
-
- 154 Replies
- 57905 Views
-
Last post by stevecz
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:51 am