My phone call with Nate Thayer.
My phone call with Nate Thayer.
My wife could care less and my friends think I’m weird, but I suspect folks here would find it interesting. After 2 years of trying to track him down, in July I managed to talk on the phone with Nate. We talked for 4 hours all about his time in Cambodia, Pol Pit interview, Pol Pot death etc. Hands down the most interesting phone call I ever had.
I also had lunch with Elizabeth Becker a couple years ago. Also very interesting!
I also had lunch with Elizabeth Becker a couple years ago. Also very interesting!
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- violet
- Suspicious Little Mad Woman
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we are hours away from November. Why the wait to disclose this intensely weird and interesting information?barangPP wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:46 pmMy wife could care less and my friends think I’m weird, but I suspect folks here would find it interesting. After 2 years of trying to track him down, in July I managed to talk on the phone with Nate. We talked for 4 hours all about his time in Cambodia, Pol Pit interview, Pol Pot death etc. Hands down the most interesting phone call I ever had.
I also had lunch with Elizabeth Becker a couple years ago. Also very interesting!
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
- Plutarch
- Plutarch
- violet
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I'm going to start a thread and call it My horseback ride.
When people click to read about my horseback ride, they will read....
After hours of anticipation, I rode my horse. We rode fast. We rode slow etc. The most interesting ride I ever had.
When people click to read about my horseback ride, they will read....
After hours of anticipation, I rode my horse. We rode fast. We rode slow etc. The most interesting ride I ever had.
The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.
- Plutarch
- Plutarch
I’ve got more to say when I’m not typing on my phone. Hang tight…
ok, should have just made 1 post. Sorry..
Elizabeth Becker: Had lunch with her July 2019 in DC. I was working in PP at the time and just finished "When the War Was Over" and headed to DC for a week and she agreed to meet. Very nice meeting. During the 70s, she was covering the UN and asked Ieng Sary multiple times for an interview and was rejected. Then in '77 (?) got the invite. I said I have 2 questions for you and she immediately said she knew what the questions were and she was right! 1) Who killed Caldwell? 2) Why do so many Cambodians think Pol Pot was a great man?
Her answers: 1) She still doesn't know, but thought it was an inside job to discredit the Pol Pot regime. If I recall the conversation right, she didn't think Coldwell was singled out, but the gunman wanted to kill the first one of them he saw and it was Caldwell. She didn't know why the gunman didn't also kill her.
2) Why do so many Khmers think Pol Pot was great? Her answer was the same answer one of my staff in PP gave me. (One whose father was killed by KR and he himself was in a child work camp in the NE) - because Pol Pot wanted to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, move Cambodia to self-sufficiency, and get rid of the Vietnamese who were the real criminals. Same thing we've all heard. She said she snuck out of the guest house multiple times to look around town, but was always picked up within 2 hours and lectured by KR minders to stop leaving the guest house. The Pol Pot interview was not an interview, but a monologue by Pol Pot all about the Vietnamese enemies. Apparently she and Nate Thayer were both at the Thai/Cambodia border trying to get across to document Pol Pot's death, but for a variety of reasons Nate made it in first and she was not allowed into Cambodia.
She and I disagreed on the US's role in the popularity and strength of the KR pre-1975. She believes the US bombings in Cambodia played a major role in the KR coming to power. I disagreed citing the communist movements in Indochina were organizing long before the Vietnam War and by the time Rolling Thunder started, the CPK had been established already for +5 years or longer. I told her Sihanouk teaming up with the KR had more of an impact than US bombings. We agreed to disagree. Probably not a lot of conversation was new material, but neat to talk to her first hand.
Ok, Thayer next....
Elizabeth Becker: Had lunch with her July 2019 in DC. I was working in PP at the time and just finished "When the War Was Over" and headed to DC for a week and she agreed to meet. Very nice meeting. During the 70s, she was covering the UN and asked Ieng Sary multiple times for an interview and was rejected. Then in '77 (?) got the invite. I said I have 2 questions for you and she immediately said she knew what the questions were and she was right! 1) Who killed Caldwell? 2) Why do so many Cambodians think Pol Pot was a great man?
Her answers: 1) She still doesn't know, but thought it was an inside job to discredit the Pol Pot regime. If I recall the conversation right, she didn't think Coldwell was singled out, but the gunman wanted to kill the first one of them he saw and it was Caldwell. She didn't know why the gunman didn't also kill her.
2) Why do so many Khmers think Pol Pot was great? Her answer was the same answer one of my staff in PP gave me. (One whose father was killed by KR and he himself was in a child work camp in the NE) - because Pol Pot wanted to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, move Cambodia to self-sufficiency, and get rid of the Vietnamese who were the real criminals. Same thing we've all heard. She said she snuck out of the guest house multiple times to look around town, but was always picked up within 2 hours and lectured by KR minders to stop leaving the guest house. The Pol Pot interview was not an interview, but a monologue by Pol Pot all about the Vietnamese enemies. Apparently she and Nate Thayer were both at the Thai/Cambodia border trying to get across to document Pol Pot's death, but for a variety of reasons Nate made it in first and she was not allowed into Cambodia.
She and I disagreed on the US's role in the popularity and strength of the KR pre-1975. She believes the US bombings in Cambodia played a major role in the KR coming to power. I disagreed citing the communist movements in Indochina were organizing long before the Vietnam War and by the time Rolling Thunder started, the CPK had been established already for +5 years or longer. I told her Sihanouk teaming up with the KR had more of an impact than US bombings. We agreed to disagree. Probably not a lot of conversation was new material, but neat to talk to her first hand.
Ok, Thayer next....
- Lucky Lucan
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I'm not sure when she got the invitation but she visited in December 1978 and left just a few days before the Vietnamese invasion started on the 25th. .
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
Got a hold of Nate in July 2021 and called him. He was living in Massachusetts at the time. He was still working on "Sympathy for the Devil" trying to pare it down from 600 pages. According to his facebook or website, he's been trying to pare it down for like 5 years so not sure what's going on. He did ask that I not give a lot of details to people about our call as much of what he told me is in the upcoming book, but I wish he'd publish it already...
He had great stories about working with the KR and them sneaking him in and out of Cambodia through the jungles in the middle of the night, dodging gunfire, etc.... When he got the call about Pol Pot's death, he flew to the border at Along Veng and spent the night. In the hotel restaurant he saw Elizabeth Becker checking in, but he laughed as he had already laid the groundwork to get into Cambodia the next day and to make sure she couldn't. Once he got to Along Veng and saw Pol Pot's wife and daughter, he commented how sad he felt seeing the grief on Pol Pot's wife face. He was taken aback that, to this women, the dead man there wasn't Pol Pot, the man behind the horrors, it was her husband and the father of her child and she lost her husband. He said it humanized the situation and he really felt bad for the family. The KR asked him to take the body to the US Embassy in Bangkok which he refused. Then a cadre said he should take Pol Pot's finger and reached for a knife to cut one off but Nate stopped him. After thinking how to document it, Nate decided to take Pol Pot's dentures. He reached into Pol Pot's mouth and took them out and put them in his pocket. After seeing that his wife saw him remove the dentures, he put them back in Pol Pot's mouth. He said it was one of his greatest mistakes because how much would someone pay for Pol Pot's dentures? He ended up taking a piece of his hair.
I asked Nate if Pol Pot was as bad as people say or were the Vietnamese involved like so many Khmers think? He was 100% convinced of his knowledge and his guilt. Said he was a horrible killer. I told him I thought Pol Pot was closer to "blinded power-hungry, dictator" who certainly ordered the purges, but I'm not sure the starvation and overwork are totally on him. He disagreed...it's kind of hard to argue with someone whose resume on the subject far outweighs my own.
I asked him how he managed to get the trust of the KR. He said it took years of work, meeting KR cadres, eating with them, speaking Khmer with them, being interested in them, being down to earth. When they asked him to bring a gift the next time he was there - he brought the gift so they slowly built up trust. Overtime they saw him as an ally and not a threat and he never revealed secrets or their locations and always kept his word. Again, this took years of coming in and out of Cambodia, but it paid off with by getting the scoop on the trial and death. He didn't have nice things to say about Ted Koppel as you might imagine.
Like I said, I told Nate I wouldn't tell all the stories since his book has the info and hopefully he'll be able to publish it. If anyone has any questions I'll try to remember if we talked about it.
He had great stories about working with the KR and them sneaking him in and out of Cambodia through the jungles in the middle of the night, dodging gunfire, etc.... When he got the call about Pol Pot's death, he flew to the border at Along Veng and spent the night. In the hotel restaurant he saw Elizabeth Becker checking in, but he laughed as he had already laid the groundwork to get into Cambodia the next day and to make sure she couldn't. Once he got to Along Veng and saw Pol Pot's wife and daughter, he commented how sad he felt seeing the grief on Pol Pot's wife face. He was taken aback that, to this women, the dead man there wasn't Pol Pot, the man behind the horrors, it was her husband and the father of her child and she lost her husband. He said it humanized the situation and he really felt bad for the family. The KR asked him to take the body to the US Embassy in Bangkok which he refused. Then a cadre said he should take Pol Pot's finger and reached for a knife to cut one off but Nate stopped him. After thinking how to document it, Nate decided to take Pol Pot's dentures. He reached into Pol Pot's mouth and took them out and put them in his pocket. After seeing that his wife saw him remove the dentures, he put them back in Pol Pot's mouth. He said it was one of his greatest mistakes because how much would someone pay for Pol Pot's dentures? He ended up taking a piece of his hair.
I asked Nate if Pol Pot was as bad as people say or were the Vietnamese involved like so many Khmers think? He was 100% convinced of his knowledge and his guilt. Said he was a horrible killer. I told him I thought Pol Pot was closer to "blinded power-hungry, dictator" who certainly ordered the purges, but I'm not sure the starvation and overwork are totally on him. He disagreed...it's kind of hard to argue with someone whose resume on the subject far outweighs my own.
I asked him how he managed to get the trust of the KR. He said it took years of work, meeting KR cadres, eating with them, speaking Khmer with them, being interested in them, being down to earth. When they asked him to bring a gift the next time he was there - he brought the gift so they slowly built up trust. Overtime they saw him as an ally and not a threat and he never revealed secrets or their locations and always kept his word. Again, this took years of coming in and out of Cambodia, but it paid off with by getting the scoop on the trial and death. He didn't have nice things to say about Ted Koppel as you might imagine.
Like I said, I told Nate I wouldn't tell all the stories since his book has the info and hopefully he'll be able to publish it. If anyone has any questions I'll try to remember if we talked about it.
What did Nate say he believed about Pol Pot's death: murder or suicide? If the former, by what means or for exactly what reasons?
- Lucky Lucan
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On his website he says Pol Pot's wife had gotten malaria medication and other pills and he deliberately killed himself.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:08 pmWhat did Nate say he believed about Pol Pot's death: murder or suicide? If the former, by what means or for exactly what reasons?
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
- Phuket2006
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for a year in 87/88 when i used to travel between Bo Rai and Pailin we KR guides thru the mine fields, i spoke not a word of Khmer although a few thais with me did>...I asked him how he managed to get the trust of the KR. He said it took years of work, meeting KR cadres, eating with them, speaking Khmer with them, being interested in them, being down to earth
trust? all we needed was give them 50 % of the gems we mined.
did share many meals and was interested in their lives but going from thai to khmer an back to thai, not sure i got the whole story, most were just teens
"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer." HST
Yes, looking back at my notes I did ask him that and similar answer to his website. My notes and recollection was that he said Pol Pot and “fellow cadres” together took medicine they had on hand and overdosed Pol Pot. No mention of his wife. He said Pol Pit looked very sick and suspected he would have died soon anyway. Nate said the entire KR group felt as if they were days from being captured and he was shaken by nearby gunfire during the entire visit.Lucky Lucan wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:44 pmOn his website he says Pol Pot's wife had gotten malaria medication and other pills and he deliberately killed himself.Guest9999 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:08 pmWhat did Nate say he believed about Pol Pot's death: murder or suicide? If the former, by what means or for exactly what reasons?
On my notes he said he had the trust of a very high level KR official and that gave him cred with others under this guys control. Didn’t write the officials name down.Phuket2006 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:48 pmfor a year in 87/88 when i used to travel between Bo Rai and Pailin we KR guides thru the mine fields, i spoke not a word of Khmer although a few thais with me did>...I asked him how he managed to get the trust of the KR. He said it took years of work, meeting KR cadres, eating with them, speaking Khmer with them, being interested in them, being down to earth
trust? all we needed was give them 50 % of the gems we mined.
did share many meals and was interested in their lives but going from thai to khmer an back to thai, not sure i got the whole story, most were just teens
Nate was very kind to speak with me for so long, but it was tough to keep the conversation on track. I do wonder what spending so much time in the jungle with malaria, constant fighting, etc… does to a person. When I had lunch with Becker she commented Nate had sort of disappeared from journalism since leaving SE Asia. I wish he’d go on speaking tours. I think it’d be fascinating.
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