Terrorist Attack in Bangkok, Iranian Involved
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The modern State of Israel came into being in 1948 after a terrorist campaign led by those who went on to rule the nation. The state illegally acquired the means to create nuclear weapons. What right does the government of Israel have to determine the integrity of the Palestinians' leaders or dictate to another sovereign nation whether it can or cannot develop nuclear weaponry? Maybe if Israel would agree to unilaterally disarm the weapons it has never possessed, there might be a case for open and positive dialogue. Otherwise, it does not seem unreasonable that another regional state would desire a similar deterrent.
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That is another can of worms that needs its own thread.andyinasia wrote:The modern State of Israel came into being in 1948 after a terrorist campaign led by those who went on to rule the nation.
Sorry, I do not accept international law. I do not see it as binding insofar as the UN is not a legitimate source of supranational law. Why do I hold this? First, not all of its members are democracies. I would have no problem with a collective of democratic states with shared values and norms limiting their sovereignty with supranational law: much like the US colonies had done at the start of the revolutionary war and as Europe has been doing since the close of WW2. Second, the UN security council undermines the legitimacy of UN outcomes. My arguments regarding Iran have nothing to do with international law. Unless/until we have a democratic international orgnization composed of only liberal democratic states, I have no interest in international law.andyinasia wrote:The state illegally acquired the means to create nuclear weapons. What right does the government of Israel have to determine the integrity of the Palestinians' leaders or dictate to another sovereign nation whether it can or cannot develop nuclear weaponry?
Somehow, I seriously doubt that an Israeli elimination of their nuclear capacity would make them any safer. Iran would not change its anti-semitic and genocidal program. Further, I just do not see the Iranians as merely seeking a deterrant to Israel's nuclear capability. They want, IMO, what pakistan got when they went nuclear.andyinasia wrote: Maybe if Israel would agree to unilaterally disarm the weapons it has never possessed, there might be a case for open and positive dialogue. Otherwise, it does not seem unreasonable that another regional state would desire a similar deterrent.
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connecticuter wrote:That is another can of worms that needs its own thread.andyinasia wrote:The modern State of Israel came into being in 1948 after a terrorist campaign led by those who went on to rule the nation.
How is it off topic? You are rejecting the legitimacy and authority of Palestinian leaders; I am asking for consistency in place of hypocrisy.
You are also rejecting the legitimacy of international law; okay - like I said, you're leaving no space for rational debate; therefore, I'm ducking out.
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I got as far as "Mail Online" - England's Fox News for housewives.jm wrote:Can't imagine why Israel gets so touchy:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... oHcRkor50A
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LOLLucky Lucan wrote:So the Jewskis stole the ragheads deer too? Cunts.connecticuter wrote:Regardless, it is hypocracy to suggest that Israel ought to give the eland back.
Yeah, they were behaving like damn wildebeesties!Kudus to them, anyway.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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It is off topic for the following. First, the founding of most states is a complicated tale of blood and horror. Often too difficult to suss out villians from victims. When we look at the founding of the US or the UK we can find all sorts of questionable and/or unsavory events. This does not mean that the US or the UK are once and forever incapable of having moral legitimacy or engaging in a good policy. There is no original sin in international relations. Second, what I am interested in is the contemporary scene. I am interested in the contemporary policies of Israel, the palestinians, the Iranians, etc. As I said, Israel just does not have rational and/or legitimate peace partners. Any moral excesses on Israel's part flow from this: their security fences, and their blockade of gaza are good examples of this. If they palestinian leadership was rational and had legitimacy the fence and the blockade would be unnecessary.andyinasia wrote:How is it off topic? You are rejecting the legitimacy and authority of Palestinian leaders; I am asking for consistency in place of hypocrisy.
You are also rejecting the legitimacy of international law; okay - like I said, you're leaving no space for rational debate; therefore, I'm ducking out.
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Explain, please. I live here. Let them nuke each other, that would solve the problem permanently.connecticuter wrote:Ooohhh!!andyinasia wrote: I know, I was really responding to vlad's post, as you were. Indeed we're all on the same page. By the way, Conny's challenging us to rationally outline our reasons for refusing to arse-lick Zionism. My response is the same as it would be if a creationist challenged me to prove Genesis isn't inerrant literal truth - I've got better things to do with my time.
I had a asserted:
3. it is in the interest of the world to neutralize Iran's nuclear program
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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No offense, but now you are sounding like a typical American.vladimir wrote:Explain, please. I live here. Let them nuke each other, that would solve the problem permanently.
Seriously though, if they had a nuclear exchange that would play havoc with the already fragile global economy in general and the US and European economies in particular. That would trickle all the way down to PP: our dollars and euros would be worth even less.
If they did not have a nuclear exchange that would, as I have said, allow Iran to mirror Pakistan. That would seriously destablize the region, cause a nuclear arms race (the Saudis would be quick to arm themselves), and again further undermine the global economy. There are vast numbers of people on this planet for whom a fluctuation in oil prices results in hunger and the inability to afford medical treatment: India for example. As many have pointed out, when an economy is destablized even "good" governments find their ability to maintain rule of law and provide basic services in jeopardy.
So, there is a lot at stake here.
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Are you the only American who knows this secret? GWB obviously didn't, because we all know he cared deeply about the economies of other countries, especially poor ones, when making self-aggrandizing retard decisions, right??connecticuter wrote:No offense, but now you are sounding like a typical American.vladimir wrote:Explain, please. I live here. Let them nuke each other, that would solve the problem permanently.
It was a joke, connie.
There are vast numbers of people on this planet for whom a fluctuation in oil prices results in hunger and the inability to afford medical treatment: India for example.
It's kind of interesting that they make war because of oil and then next time use oil as a reason to talk about why they need to prevent war...or do I not understand selective logic?
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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point 1. There was a great man, one of my heroes as a young man, who tried to sort out a peace deal. I'm talking about Yitzhak Rabin, who, despite his earlier justifications for firing on unarmed Palestinians, at least tried in his later years to follow the Oslo Peace Accord. He was assassinated by his own people for doing so. As was Sadat in Egypt.connecticuter wrote:
I have some sympathy with the "Palesinian" people, not their leadership. The trouble is not with the Israeli's. They have had enough moderates to forge a peace deal. Sadly, they have no partner for peace. Hamas and Hezbollah are blatant terrorists. Fatah also supports terrorism: e.g., al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.
One does not need to specifically target children and the elderly to fight an assymetric war: that is a choice. I reject the one man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. If the Palestinians employed snipers to hit police, soldiers and politicians I would not label them terrorists. Such a strategy is a real option for them. Instead they target the weak and the innocent. No one is going to convince me that firing rockets on primary schools, blowing up public transportation, or using suicide bombs in shopping malls is acceptable. And no, civilian casualties in a mission to hit a military target or kill a terrorist is not morally equivalent to suicide bombing or firing rockets at a civilian area for the sake of killing civilians.
As for the idea that Israel ought to give back the West Bank (in that they had annexed it during the six day war), this is silly. The Six day war was made necessary by Israel's aggressive neighbors and their designs on Israel. If you know you are about to be attacked, you have a right to defend yourself first, you do not need to wait to be struck first. Regardless, it is hypocracy to suggest that Israel ought to give th eland back. Should the US give Texas back to mexico. Should Poland give back the German territory it had annexed after WW2, etc... As far as I am concerned, the annexed territory should be considered asshole tax, a nice reminder to Israel's neighbors as to why they should not attack again. Besides, look at Israel's unilateral withdrawal and elmination of its settlements in Gaza. What did they get for the suffering they imposed on families that lived there? BUPKIS! Well, aside from the regular rocket attacks from gaza.
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Point 2. Get real, sunbeam. Do you really believe that Israel does not commit atrocities? Read the media from countries other than the US and you might learn something about what is going on.
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Just scoured his posts again and he does not deny that Israel commits atrocities simply because he doesn't mention that it does...ergo, nothing to deny. What he does do is list Palestinian atrocities as if Israel is purely the victim and not the aggressor.jm wrote:I didn't see where Connie was denying that Israel commits atrocities, let's not put words in anybody's mouth. And Rabin was shot by a radical right wing nut, not "shot by his own people" any more than Kennedy or James Garfield was.
Rabin was shot by a nutter, true, but still he was an Israeli nutter - hence, one of his own race, if not supporters.
Gandhi can also be included in the list of people removed by nutters who didn't agree with progress.
Back to the point - Conn seems naive to me - and intransigent in that he refuses to try and hold a balanced view of why Palestine reacts to atrocity with atrocity. I disapprove of all such actions. 'Romeo' teaches us that the buck has to stop somewhere - both sides need to admit responsibility for prolonging the conflict - as (fingers crossed) seems to have happened (fingers crossed, please) in the Irish question.
Last edited by kinglear#1 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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As I said, collateral damage, while lamentable, is not the same thing as killing civilians for the sake of creating terror. Also, I said that Israeli policies that tend to rattle some people (such as the embargo or the security fence) are the result of not having a peace partner. As I also said, when you look at the unilateral withdrawal from gaza, we did not see land for peace. The palestinians blew their chance, there. Instead, they demonstrated the fallacy of the "land for peace slogan", and that the loss of land meant not peace, just more terror. Additionally, we need to make a clear distinction between violence committed by setttlers vs state sanctioned violence.
Sorry, but Israeli "violence" is a lot more complicated than what we see from the palestinians. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Fatah engage in and support terror. They make it all too easy to marginalize them. I have no sympathy for a political organization that thinks murdering school children is legitimate. In contrast, the Israeli's put a good deal of effort in trying to minimize collateral damage. They are far more restrained in their actions than many of the nations that criticize them: e.g., russia in chechnya, sudan in darfur, etc. Selective outcry...
Sorry, but Israeli "violence" is a lot more complicated than what we see from the palestinians. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Fatah engage in and support terror. They make it all too easy to marginalize them. I have no sympathy for a political organization that thinks murdering school children is legitimate. In contrast, the Israeli's put a good deal of effort in trying to minimize collateral damage. They are far more restrained in their actions than many of the nations that criticize them: e.g., russia in chechnya, sudan in darfur, etc. Selective outcry...
As I saidkinglear#1 wrote:Read the media from countries other than the US and you might learn something about what is going on.
connecticuter wrote:Fox News is only one news source that I use. I obtain my information from many sources with a variety of perspectives: for example,
BBC
CNN
The New York Times
The Times of India
Haaretz
The Jerusalem Post
The Economist
The Atlantic
The New Yorker
The Weekly Standard
The National Review
Reason
Cato Institute
Foreign Affairs
Foreign Policy
Etc...
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But he did have supporters in the Knesset, and there are nutters in the Knesset today. I don't see the Daily Mail reporting their loony views, however. Why do you assume one radical (if influential) Iranian is somehow representitive of the populace or the government?jm wrote:And Rabin was shot by a radical right wing nut, not "shot by his own people" any more than Kennedy or James Garfield was.
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