Israel / Gaza (and Waffen SS T-Shirts)
- Jacked Camry
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As usual, you fail to understand the point. It was not that they couldn't return because they'd be slaughtered again. It was that they didn't want to return to the villages they had previously lived in.vladimir wrote:'You and Rain Dog proceeded from that point to then question Israel's existence and suggest that it should cease to be, as if the millions of Jews living there would just pack their bags and be off, back to where they had been slaughtered like cattle.'
Uh, it was 1948, the war had been over for 2 years. Not much chance of a slaughter with Adolf and the Nazis gone, and Murrika staying by proxy. I personally would have returned, just to piss in the face of the dead oppressors, in the same way I think the Twin Towers should have been rebuilt.
Imagine living in a poor but intellectually, socially and culturally-thriving community surrounded by your family, friends and compatriots. Life was hard but tolerable. Then life starts to become hellish, your neighbours whom you weren't close with but whom you peacefully coexisted with for centuries start to become increasingly hostile as they're turned against you by an outside occupying force acting in concert with local extremist hoodlums and racists. Then it becomes unimaginable, with your rights to work and property being taken away and random and extreme violence becomes normal against you, your wife, your daughters and your sons. Finally, you're dragged out of the only house you've ever known, packed on unheated trains used for transporting livestock and taken to camps where 99% of your friends and family are systematically murdered. Oh, other than the lucky ones who died packed next to you standing up in the cattle car and whom you've been feeling grow cold and stiff the whole time.
You would suggest that they be taken back to those places, places now completely devoid of the Jews, the culture and the community that previously existed, to live next to the people who at best simply shrugged and looked away as your family and friends were being slaughtered, and who had no qualms moving in shortly afterwards and taking over the houses they used to live in. Really? You would personally have returned? There's no way on earth you would have returned to live by yourself or with a few other survivors, isolated among your former oppressors, deprived of your community and religion. Nor would they.
Well, that was mighty white of you to allow the straggling remnants of the millions of European Jews to become refugees. And of course you failed to mention how countries like the US and UK severely restricted Jewish immigration as Jews realized the dangers in the 1930's and increasingly tried to leave. This included, most notably, the UK not allowing Jews to move to Palestine in 1938-1939 at the peak of Jews trying to get out when they could see the writing on the wall.vladimir wrote:I never questioned their right to be refugees; but taking over the country they fled to, and doing so by violent means, and then imposing apartheid is kind of a big step from being a refugee there.
How was its existence brought about? By legal, transparent application subject to international debate, or by backroom deals?
Why do you think this was necessary? Do you think back room deals inspire trust? And let me make it quite clear that I'm not unaware of how Britain behaved in this little deal.
As to the "back room deal" aspect, are you saying there has ever been a major international treaty or agreement that's been conducted entirely in the open and transparently? Do tell.
I'll let LTO and others answer this on my behalf. I just want you to keep typing vlad, because it's becoming increasingly apparent the longer you do.vladimir wrote:Once again, in one sentence you say I deny the right to exist for Israel, and in the next you say I hate all Jews. Completely gaga, you are, because as you so carefully pointed out, and I must say, I agree 100%, Israel and Judaism are NOT one and the same.
So, if we both agree on that, how do you extrapolate me hating Jews, since the two are not synonymous?
Netanyahu receives large amounts of criticism in the USA and Canada obviously. And naturally the voices on the Israeli Right and those who support them like to try to marginalize them by calling them names. Just like pretty much any political issue about anyone and anything. Chomsky is a lightning rod for criticism not just by Jews or about Israel, and you could no doubt find references to him being the devil himself from those who hate him. So what? None of those people are in the mainstream, including Chomsky. Type any view about anything into Google and you'll find a group who is adamantly opposed and will provide you with sufficient quotations to fill paragraphs full of nonsense.vladimir wrote:When, say, an American Jew criticises Netanyahu, then he becomes a 'self-hating Jew'. I guess Chomsky is an anti-Semite. Makes sense, right? Your conflation of all Jews with Israel despite acknowledging my stated view to the contrary, is a pathetic, tired attempt to divert attention from Nutternayhu and/or the legitimacy of the state of Israel, whom you support, despite your token protestations re Nutternyahu and his goons.
You bore me. Same old predictable tactics, criticise Israel = anti-semite. Wow, how original.
Where you start to become transparently disingenuous though is when you try to pretend that it was ME who was trying to conflate Israel and the Jews contrary to YOUR "stated view to the contrary". Nice try, and even Edinwigan probably thinks that was a Dikembe Mutombo reach (I breathlessly await his next four paragraphs of blathering fluff saying nothing in response). You've managed to paint yourself into a corner there, whereupon you then hoisted yourself with your own petard.
Finally, you acknowledge, despite your previous denial, that you do not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel. And thereby prove that my argument about your improper conflation of recognizing Israel's right to exist/approving of anything Israel does is correct.
So, anyway, keep typing vlad. I suspect your supporters have a vague feeling like they need to take a shower at the moment. Soon, they'll be washing themselves entirely of your stench.
- Jacked Camry
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And here's our other noted expert on the Middle East, Jock Jock, suggesting a novel solution that has already been tried and has without a doubt exacerbated the problems rather than resolving them.Jock Jock wrote:Build a wall, that's the answer
I guess you're trying to prove that hindsight is NOT 20/20?
Nope, it was sarcasm.Jacked Camry wrote:And here's our other noted expert on the Middle East, Jock Jock, suggesting a novel solution that has already been tried and has without a doubt exacerbated the problems rather than resolving them.Jock Jock wrote:Build a wall, that's the answer
I guess you're trying to prove that hindsight is NOT 20/20?
- vladimir
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I would not suggest they be ' taken' anywhere. I would suggest they go home of their own accord to prove they are bigger than the bastards that tried to exterminate them. Can you imagine a more poetic justice than rebuilding in Germany, being given land there? Many of them had no qualms about moving into houses where muslim Arabs had been slaughtered, in fact many took part in the murder, so the whole ' horror' is a barrier thing is kind of flat.Jacked Camry wrote:As usual, you fail to understand the point. It was not that they couldn't return because they'd be slaughtered again. It was that they didn't want to return to the villages they had previously lived in.
You would suggest that they be taken back to those places, places now completely devoid of the Jews, the culture and the community that previously existed, to live next to the people who at best simply shrugged and looked away as your family and friends were being slaughtered, and who had no qualms moving in shortly afterwards and taking over the houses they used to live in.
I will simplify my stance:
There are 10 Israeli Jews in a room.
1 is an Israeli politician strongly aligned with Netanyahu, or, incredibly, perhaps even more gaga.
1 is an IDF soldier who unquestioningly follows orders, even if these contravene the Geneva Convention and result in the deaths of innocents.
1 is a civilian who supports Netanyahu.
1 is a neutral teacher
1 is a neutral architect
1 is a neutral pilot
1 is a teenager who doesn't really know one way or the other
1 is a Human Rights activist who protests against HR abuses
1 is a child
1 is whatever, a printer, say
The only ones I dislike intensely /want to see receiving justice are the first three.
My indifference to 6 of the remaining 7, and obvious support for one (do I need to tell you which Israeli I like?) tells anyone that I am not an anti-semite.
You can apply this model worldwide, the only ones I dislike intensely are Netanyahu and those who support his actions.
That is my statement. You can choose to do with it what you will. If you insist and persist in calling me an anti-semite, based on this, then I really don't care, go ahead.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
But when you throw around insults like 'fucking kike' at non jewcrew, your points are invladid.
Massive stalker
Maybe his collection of SS t-shirts were getting laundered...saw him in Aeon mall wearing one about 10 days ago.heartymarty wrote:Just a note to say that the misguided fool in question seems to have seen the light . He lives near me around the Museum 178 area . So often spotted . No more offensive T shirts . Probably seen him five or six times this last month . In ordinary shirts . Did his roasting at Sundance make the difference I wonder .
I'm not a negative person, I encourage people all the time...it's usually to f**k off! But, whatever.
- vladimir
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invladid...must remember that one.pedros wrote:But when you throw around insults like 'fucking kike' at non jewcrew, your points are invladid.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
- Jacked Camry
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This is another example of a false parallel. There was no "muslim Arab slaughter", at least not any of any significant scale. The "Nakba" was the exodus of Palestinians from their homes as a result of losing the 1948 war either by force or voluntarily. Approximately 700,000 people left or were removed and either emigrated elsewhere or became refugees. They were not killed other than in isolated incidents such as the Deir Yassin Massacre where around 100 may have been killed during and after fierce house-to-house fighting prior to the war starting officially. They were certainly not systematically targeted and there is no suggestion of large numbers of civilian casualties beyond that which would normally occur in a conflict zone. There is nothing wrong with making a valid point that some of the Jews were moving into the homes of Muslim Arabs who had been forcibly evicted after the war. Instead you try to make it sound as if the Jews had undertook something similar to what the Germans did which is patently false and completely unsupported by any historical evidence. There was a war, one side lost, the other took their land and houses. That's how it works.vladimir wrote:I would not suggest they be ' taken' anywhere. I would suggest they go home of their own accord to prove they are bigger than the bastards that tried to exterminate them. Can you imagine a more poetic justice than rebuilding in Germany, being given land there? Many of them had no qualms about moving into houses where muslim Arabs had been slaughtered, in fact many took part in the murder, so the whole ' horror' is a barrier thing is kind of flat.Jacked Camry wrote:As usual, you fail to understand the point. It was not that they couldn't return because they'd be slaughtered again. It was that they didn't want to return to the villages they had previously lived in.
You would suggest that they be taken back to those places, places now completely devoid of the Jews, the culture and the community that previously existed, to live next to the people who at best simply shrugged and looked away as your family and friends were being slaughtered, and who had no qualms moving in shortly afterwards and taking over the houses they used to live in.
Your suggestion of "sticking it to the Germans" by moving back there just demonstrates how unable you are to empathize with these people.
Thanks again for clarifying. Unfortunately, you are unable to see just what it is you are clarifying.vladimir wrote:I will simplify my stance:
There are 10 Israeli Jews in a room.
1 is an Israeli politician strongly aligned with Netanyahu, or, incredibly, perhaps even more gaga.
1 is an IDF soldier who unquestioningly follows orders, even if these contravene the Geneva Convention and result in the deaths of innocents.
1 is a civilian who supports Netanyahu.
1 is a neutral teacher
1 is a neutral architect
1 is a neutral pilot
1 is a teenager who doesn't really know one way or the other
1 is a Human Rights activist who protests against HR abuses
1 is a child
1 is whatever, a printer, say
The only ones I dislike intensely /want to see receiving justice are the first three.
My indifference to 6 of the remaining 7, and obvious support for one (do I need to tell you which Israeli I like?) tells anyone that I am not an anti-semite.
By your own words, you are indifferent to Israeli Jews who are completely and utterly innocent of any involvement in this conflict except by accident of their birth. Even children. I'm quite sure that you're not indifferent to Palestinian children or the vast majority of Palestinians who are simply innocent victims of this terrible conflict. You've said so numerous times. From my point of view, I feel empathy for any of the children or other non-involved parties affected by this on either side. When your basis for judgment and feelings for one group of children is different than it is for another simply based on their place of birth, race or circumstances, you have a problem. I feel no anger or hatred towards ordinary Germans, or even towards the kids of the worst Nazis. You don't condemn the children for the sins of their parents. Nor do you blame ordinary people for the actions of their governments. This is medieval thinking. Most of us have moved on from this simplistic way of viewing the world and find those who don't filled with ignorance. It's quite common still though, obviously.
As to the three you're intending to bring "justice" to, you've just condemned how many millions of people for the simple democratic act of casting a ballot? What sort of "justice" are you proposing for these people? I guess we know already, you want to deport them back to their place of origin. Well, fair enough! Do the ones who voted against him get to stay?
I also find it astonishing that you have no ability to place yourself within the situation of an ordinary Israeli Jew given that you likely experienced a similar one being a White Saffer during Apartheid. Or are you telling me that the majority of White Saffers back then were chafing under the burden of how their African brothers were being treated and were just scared to do anything about it because of Botha or something? Do you believe that any South African who wasn't secretly hiding members of the ANC or otherwise trying to overthrow the regime is scum deserving of "Justice" and who should be deported back to their great-grandfather's place? Does that include you?
You have failed to convince me of anything other than that my assessment was completely correct. Every time you try to clarify it, you only verify it.vladimir wrote:You can apply this model worldwide, the only ones I dislike intensely are Netanyahu and those who support his actions.
That is my statement. You can choose to do with it what you will. If you insist and persist in calling me an anti-semite, based on this, then I really don't care, go ahead.
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- 2000+ Posts! Aghh I Have No Mates
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... and to think i get sh** for boring the fuc* out of folk by stupidly long posts.
You folk really need to re-calibrate your 'Give-a-Fuck-O-Meter'
You folk really need to re-calibrate your 'Give-a-Fuck-O-Meter'
Nothing but an opinionated tourist. The Pope spends more time in countries than I do ! It is also not my place to comment on a gentleman's dress. A real 23 minute wonder, that obviously knows little about ovens and cooking in Cambodia.
- Lucky Lucan
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There are long posts and there are your stupid long posts.EdinWigan wrote:... and to think i get sh** for boring the fuc* out of folk by stupidly long posts.
You folk really need to re-calibrate your 'Give-a-Fuck-O-Meter'
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
- springrain
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JC, I don't accept that The Massace at Deir Yassincan just be brushed off as a tiny isolated incident. It was savage, brutal and outrageous, with reports of the rape of young girls, abuse of old women and one girl being 'torn in half' The purpose of the massacre was to spread terror, panic & a mass exodus, and it worked. Estimates of casualties range from 110 up to 240, but it is hard to ascertain since records are hard to uncover. A lot depends on eye-witness testimony.Jacked Camry wrote: Approximately 700,000 people left or were removed and either emigrated elsewhere or became refugees. They were not killed other than in isolated incidents such as the Deir Yassin Massacre where around 100 may have been killed during and after fierce house-to-house fighting prior to the war starting officially. They were certainly not systematically targeted and there is no suggestion of large numbers of civilian casualties beyond that which would normally occur in a conflict zone. There is nothing wrong with making a valid point that some of the Jews were moving into the homes of Muslim Arabs who had been forcibly evicted after the war. Instead you try to make it sound as if the Jews had undertook something similar to what the Germans did which is patently false and completely unsupported by any historical evidence.
I know you don't like sources being thrown at you, but I am teaching the Arab-Israeli conflict as part of a depth study for IGCSE History, so I appreciate the value of considering several different sources. Some interested readers might also wish to read these and other sources:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 70018.html
http://www.countercurrents.org/akleh150413.htm
http://www.deiryassin.org/survivors.html (Includes statements of the horrific atrocities)
http://www.daysofpalestine.com/features ... ir-yassin/
Here's a view that claims it was exaggerated, of course:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... assin.html
The second source (countercurrents) is vital as it contains statements from Israeli military personnel involved in the massacre. But yes, I accept that it will also have a biased viewpoint. The investigator must make his/her mind up.
Either way, a seemingly small incident (in terms of numbers) had a massive effect on the whole situation.
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
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- K440 Old Cunts Club
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Long posts are good, especially when the result is watching Vladimir being owned by JC.EdinWigan wrote:... and to think i get sh** for boring the fuc* out of folk by stupidly long posts.
My posts are just jokes, maybe they're rude, offensive, and politically incorrect. They're not my opinion, viewpoint, idea, or judgement, but they're just fucking jokes so lighten up.
- spitthedog
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They've all got big noses aswell.
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
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