Sexual orientation - chosen, learned, or predetermined
- springrain
- I'm on 3000; na na, na na na
- Reactions: 48
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:25 pm
Thanks for a fascinating discussion.
Alexandra, I find a number of contradictions in your roundabout arguments. Thus:
You speak of ‘rehabilitation’ here:
You can rehabilitate people to not rape people, children and others, but you can never "cure" them from sexual attraction, so logically there is no way it would work the other way.
Then you appear to suggest that it is not the fault of the perpetrator:
Mental illness doesn't emerge from the environment, there are very often chemical imbalances that can be medicated against (hence psychotherapy is a thing).
(Btw, medication & psychotherapy are very different things)
Then, after admitting such conditions may be chemical or can be medicated against (which contradicts your assertion that they are not curable), you call them ‘sickos’.
Better end this here before people think I want to defend sickos.
Well, if folk who can be ‘cured’(your word) & ‘rehabilitated’(again, your word) are ‘victims’ of ‘chemical imbalances’ (Again, your words) they can hardly be defined as ‘sickos’, merely folk who require treatment.
Your ‘argument’ has come full circle, with your contradicting yourself. There are other examples, but it is getting late.
Alexandra, I find a number of contradictions in your roundabout arguments. Thus:
You speak of ‘rehabilitation’ here:
You can rehabilitate people to not rape people, children and others, but you can never "cure" them from sexual attraction, so logically there is no way it would work the other way.
Then you appear to suggest that it is not the fault of the perpetrator:
Mental illness doesn't emerge from the environment, there are very often chemical imbalances that can be medicated against (hence psychotherapy is a thing).
(Btw, medication & psychotherapy are very different things)
Then, after admitting such conditions may be chemical or can be medicated against (which contradicts your assertion that they are not curable), you call them ‘sickos’.
Better end this here before people think I want to defend sickos.
Well, if folk who can be ‘cured’(your word) & ‘rehabilitated’(again, your word) are ‘victims’ of ‘chemical imbalances’ (Again, your words) they can hardly be defined as ‘sickos’, merely folk who require treatment.
Your ‘argument’ has come full circle, with your contradicting yourself. There are other examples, but it is getting late.
'History is a set of lies agreed upon.'
Attributed to Napoleon
Attributed to Napoleon
I think that people with chemical imbalances should be held accountable for hurting other people. I don't think you can cure people from having thoughts but that you can cure people's lust for rape. I still think rapists should go to jail and mental illness is not a valid excuse. People with mental illnesses should not be in a position where they can rape others. Jail or hospital is a good place to keep them.
Everybody is responsible for their actions, and if they are unable to be then they should not be able to act. If they are then parents and other caretakers have full responsibility.
Bless
Everybody is responsible for their actions, and if they are unable to be then they should not be able to act. If they are then parents and other caretakers have full responsibility.
Bless
Last edited by Alexandra on Mon May 16, 2016 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- LTO
- The Internet is my Friend
- Reactions: 1
- Posts: 6412
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:10 pm
- Location: Srok Khmer
- Contact:
I'm telling you that the 'born that way' claim is faltering fast, being dumped even by those deeply attached to it just a few years ago. And that the so-called science behind it was always controversial. Whether that shift is permeating into this other highly politicized bit of 'science' you are citing, I leave to you to research. But just as a matter of prognostication, I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
- offshoresports
- I've got internet at work
- Reactions: 1
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:54 am
Interesting post. I haven't read anything to suggest what you're saying is true. Even Republican John Kasich recently said, that people are “probably” born gay. I also added a link that shows a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary (wiki evidence). Even more, didn't it come out in recent years that gays DNA is actually unique to straights? I don't know, I'm not a scientist and anything is possible. But, I did grow up with kids who were gay from the get go. No doubt in my mind the majority of gay men and women are born that way. The only trending i could find on the subject was bullshit Christian or Conservative blogs. I predict in a few years, there will be no doubt they are born that way.LTO wrote:I'm telling you that the 'born that way' claim is faltering fast, being dumped even by those deeply attached to it just a few years ago. And that the so-called science behind it was always controversial. Whether that shift is permeating into this other highly politicized bit of 'science' you are citing, I leave to you to research. But just as a matter of prognostication, I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_a ... rientation
Numbnuts all grown up
- Jacked Camry
- Is the World Outside still there ?
- Reactions: 2
- Posts: 5674
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:53 pm
This corresponds to my experience as well. I think a useful question you might ask is "when did you decide to become straight?"offshoresports wrote:Interesting post. I haven't read anything to suggest what you're saying is true. Even Republican John Kasich recently said, that people are “probably” born gay. I also added a link that shows a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary (wiki evidence). Even more, didn't it come out in recent years that gays DNA is actually unique to straights? I don't know, I'm not a scientist and anything is possible. But, I did grow up with kids who were gay from the get go. No doubt in my mind the majority of gay men and women are born that way. The only trending i could find on the subject was bullshit Christian or Conservative blogs. I predict in a few years, there will be no doubt they are born that way.LTO wrote:I'm telling you that the 'born that way' claim is faltering fast, being dumped even by those deeply attached to it just a few years ago. And that the so-called science behind it was always controversial. Whether that shift is permeating into this other highly politicized bit of 'science' you are citing, I leave to you to research. But just as a matter of prognostication, I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_a ... rientation
My understanding also was that there is a far higher prevalence of gay males in second and third male children in comparison to firstborn, something that perhaps might relate to chemical and hormonal changes in the mother's womb during the initial pregnancy.
- LTO
- The Internet is my Friend
- Reactions: 1
- Posts: 6412
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:10 pm
- Location: Srok Khmer
- Contact:
http://www.salon.com/2016/05/14/yes_my_ ... narrative/offshoresports wrote:Interesting post. I haven't read anything to suggest what you're saying is true. Even Republican John Kasich recently said, that people are “probably” born gay. I also added a link that shows a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary (wiki evidence). Even more, didn't it come out in recent years that gays DNA is actually unique to straights? I don't know, I'm not a scientist and anything is possible. But, I did grow up with kids who were gay from the get go. No doubt in my mind the majority of gay men and women are born that way. The only trending i could find on the subject was bullshit Christian or Conservative blogs. I predict in a few years, there will be no doubt they are born that way.LTO wrote:I'm telling you that the 'born that way' claim is faltering fast, being dumped even by those deeply attached to it just a few years ago. And that the so-called science behind it was always controversial. Whether that shift is permeating into this other highly politicized bit of 'science' you are citing, I leave to you to research. But just as a matter of prognostication, I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_a ... rientation
- spitthedog
- Is the World Outside still there ?
- Reactions: 124
- Posts: 5721
- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:19 pm
Saying pedos are born to be sexually attracted to kids is abit like saying ladymen have the op for sexual reasons. One Thai lady once told me that ladymen often top themselves after the op because they don't feel any different.
My hunch is that part of it is the pedo seeks to reverse the roll of the victim to become the victimizer.
A control thing. Like the undermining narcissist parent with ''the scape goat'' child.
My hunch is that part of it is the pedo seeks to reverse the roll of the victim to become the victimizer.
A control thing. Like the undermining narcissist parent with ''the scape goat'' child.
"I don't care what the people are thinking, i ain't drunk i'm just drinking"
In Eastern Europe perhaps... and if we are reducing individuals to their sexual orientation - and finally, if we are going back several decades and re-classifying homosexuality as an illness/undesirable trait.LTO wrote:... I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
From there it is then just a short step to the pink triangles on suits in Nazi concentration camps.
- LTO
- The Internet is my Friend
- Reactions: 1
- Posts: 6412
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:10 pm
- Location: Srok Khmer
- Contact:
Why would you do that?mrdome wrote:In Eastern Europe perhaps... and if we are reducing individuals to their sexual orientation - and finally, if we are going back several decades and re-classifying homosexuality as an illness/undesirable trait.LTO wrote:... I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
- offshoresports
- I've got internet at work
- Reactions: 1
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:54 am
Ok, so that was one persons' experience. You might have noticed, I never said all gays and I stayed away from the Lesbian situation. If science is not your thing or you don't share my experience with kids growing up gay, we'll have to agree to disagree. It's still interesting because I assumed that type of logic was decades past.LTO wrote:http://www.salon.com/2016/05/14/yes_my_ ... narrative/offshoresports wrote:Interesting post. I haven't read anything to suggest what you're saying is true. Even Republican John Kasich recently said, that people are “probably” born gay. I also added a link that shows a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary (wiki evidence). Even more, didn't it come out in recent years that gays DNA is actually unique to straights? I don't know, I'm not a scientist and anything is possible. But, I did grow up with kids who were gay from the get go. No doubt in my mind the majority of gay men and women are born that way. The only trending i could find on the subject was bullshit Christian or Conservative blogs. I predict in a few years, there will be no doubt they are born that way.LTO wrote:I'm telling you that the 'born that way' claim is faltering fast, being dumped even by those deeply attached to it just a few years ago. And that the so-called science behind it was always controversial. Whether that shift is permeating into this other highly politicized bit of 'science' you are citing, I leave to you to research. But just as a matter of prognostication, I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_a ... rientation
Numbnuts all grown up
- Jamie_Lambo
- Internet Addiction: it is real
- Reactions: 15
- Posts: 4002
- Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:13 pm
- Location: Pig Penh
offshoresports wrote:Interesting post. I haven't read anything to suggest what you're saying is true. Even Republican John Kasich recently said, that people are “probably” born gay. I also added a link that shows a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary (wiki evidence). Even more, didn't it come out in recent years that gays DNA is actually unique to straights? I don't know, I'm not a scientist and anything is possible. But, I did grow up with kids who were gay from the get go. No doubt in my mind the majority of gay men and women are born that way. The only trending i could find on the subject was bullshit Christian or Conservative blogs. I predict in a few years, there will be no doubt they are born that way.LTO wrote:I'm telling you that the 'born that way' claim is faltering fast, being dumped even by those deeply attached to it just a few years ago. And that the so-called science behind it was always controversial. Whether that shift is permeating into this other highly politicized bit of 'science' you are citing, I leave to you to research. But just as a matter of prognostication, I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_a ... rientation
Mean Dtuk Mean Trey, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
LTO- your position and wording here is just questionable. If I were you, I'd either come out and say it or correct the impression you created.LTO wrote:Why would you do that?mrdome wrote:In Eastern Europe perhaps... and if we are reducing individuals to their sexual orientation - and finally, if we are going back several decades and re-classifying homosexuality as an illness/undesirable trait.LTO wrote:... I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
- Jamie_Lambo
- Internet Addiction: it is real
- Reactions: 15
- Posts: 4002
- Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:13 pm
- Location: Pig Penh
All this talk of child sex abuse and the abused becoming the abuser reminds me of a very powerful song by Tool in the early 90's
It took so long to remember just what happened
I was so young and vestal then
You know it hurt me
But I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive
Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise
I've got my hands bound
My head down, my eyes closed
And my throat wide open
Do unto others what has been done to you
Do unto others what has been done to you
I'm treading water
I need to sleep a while
My lamb and martyr, you look so precious
Won't you come a bit closer
Close enough so I can smell you
I need you to feel this
I can't stand to burn too long
Released in sodomy
For one sweet moment I am whole
Do unto you now what has been done to me
Do unto you now what has been done to me
You're breathing so I guess you're still alive
Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise
Won't you come just a bit closer
Close enough so I can smell you
I need you to feel this
I need this to make me whole
Release in sodomy
For I am your witness that
Blood and flesh can be trusted
And only this one holy medium brings me peace of mind
Got your hands bound, your head down
Your eyes closed
You look so precious now
I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this
Shit blood and cum on my hands
I've come round full circle
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon
You look so precious
It took so long to remember just what happened
I was so young and vestal then
You know it hurt me
But I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive
Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise
I've got my hands bound
My head down, my eyes closed
And my throat wide open
Do unto others what has been done to you
Do unto others what has been done to you
I'm treading water
I need to sleep a while
My lamb and martyr, you look so precious
Won't you come a bit closer
Close enough so I can smell you
I need you to feel this
I can't stand to burn too long
Released in sodomy
For one sweet moment I am whole
Do unto you now what has been done to me
Do unto you now what has been done to me
You're breathing so I guess you're still alive
Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise
Won't you come just a bit closer
Close enough so I can smell you
I need you to feel this
I need this to make me whole
Release in sodomy
For I am your witness that
Blood and flesh can be trusted
And only this one holy medium brings me peace of mind
Got your hands bound, your head down
Your eyes closed
You look so precious now
I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this
Shit blood and cum on my hands
I've come round full circle
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon
You look so precious
Mean Dtuk Mean Trey, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks
- LTO
- The Internet is my Friend
- Reactions: 1
- Posts: 6412
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:10 pm
- Location: Srok Khmer
- Contact:
It is not my fault that is the direction you mind goes.mrdome wrote:LTO- your position and wording here is just questionable. If I were you, I'd either come out and say it or correct the impression you created.LTO wrote:Why would you do that?mrdome wrote:In Eastern Europe perhaps... and if we are reducing individuals to their sexual orientation - and finally, if we are going back several decades and re-classifying homosexuality as an illness/undesirable trait.LTO wrote:... I predict within a couple few years (or less) the question will not be whether they can be converted, but whether they should be, which is really what all this scientificish posturing has been about since the beginning.Alexandra wrote:LTO are you telling me that homosexuals can be converted?
Bless
I can deal with science and I share your experience. There is no conclusive scientific evidence for the 'born that way 'claim, and that some people think they 'were gay from the start' is no indication of a genetic basis. 'Born that way' is a political claim in search of science to support it, so far without success. In fact it is a particularly bad sort of science - a conclusion in search of evidence - and the best they've been able to come up so far with is suggestive studies and possible connections hinting at something they really want to believe. The purpose of the 'born that way' claim is to counter the 'it's a choice' argument (as if that is the dichotomy) and remove moral culpability from the equation. One cannot be blamed for what one has no choice in. But society moves along, and as the stigma attached to being gay (in so far as 'gay' is even a real category) slowly falls away, so too does the need to make the 'born that way' argument. It doesn't matter if there is an element of environment/choice if there is nothing wrong with being gay. And as gender studies advances and notions like gender fluidity move to the fore, constraining ideas like 'born gay,' which removes freedom and limits people by virtue of dubious genetically determined sexual categories, will become increasingly counter-productive and will (and are) be dropped. It is in fact the 'born that way' people who are behind the times, making a genetics-determines-behavior argument that would have been edgy even in EO Wilson's Sociobiology, and not completely out of place in 1940s Germany. It is a retrograde argument with echos of eugenics and scientific racism in it. The way forward is a change in attitudes in society about gender difference (which is a construct), not in locking people into predetermined 'born that way' categories. As the political need for the argument fades, so too will the science trying to prove it.offshoresports wrote:Ok, so that was one persons' experience. You might have noticed, I never said all gays and I stayed away from the Lesbian situation. If science is not your thing or you don't share my experience with kids growing up gay, we'll have to agree to disagree. It's still interesting because I assumed that type of logic was decades past.
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
- 2 Replies
- 1320 Views
-
Last post by newnewnewbie
Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:46 pm
-
-
T Mohan from Khmer Times Sexual Harassment - Open Letter
by MeTooCambodia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:42 am » in Cambodia Speakeasy - 180 Replies
- 57461 Views
-
Last post by JollyBee
Wed May 25, 2022 7:25 am
-