LOL. The EU was a big conspiracy, now thankfully it's gone, and we can throw ourselves into the free markets, which have our best interests at heart and are far more accountable.logos wrote:Let me get this right. You're seriously saying areas who get EU funding got it "because the EU is unpopular in those areas"?starkmonster wrote:Have you considered that the unpopularity of the EU in those areas was the reason they were getting the money? The bribe obviously didn't work.
You usually come up with relatively reasonable, or at least intelligent arguments. This is both far out there and incredibly stupid.
Brexit: the £ billion lie
I'm struggling to understand how anyone sensible and reasonable can look at this poster and claim that it's just a suggestion, it's not serious, and that any ordinary voter wouldn't have come to the conclusion that it's not a central policy plank of the Leave campaign. It's completely disingenuous.
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Indeed. Haven't they been getting these payments for years? A bribe? How so?logos wrote:Let me get this right. You're seriously saying areas who get EU funding got it "because the EU is unpopular in those areas"?starkmonster wrote:Have you considered that the unpopularity of the EU in those areas was the reason they were getting the money? The bribe obviously didn't work.
You usually come up with relatively reasonable, or at least intelligent arguments. This is both far out there and incredibly stupid.
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Well I'm looking at that picture and wondering how the hell boris has managed to superglue his hand to his head.scobienz wrote:I'm struggling to understand how anyone sensible and reasonable can look at this poster and claim that it's just a suggestion, it's not serious, and that any ordinary voter wouldn't have come to the conclusion that it's not a central policy plank of the Leave campaign. It's completely disingenuous.
Of course you're struggling. You haven't drank the cool aid. You haven't been brainwashed. You are still applying reason and logic.
I'm sure Jock Jock can explain it all away.
Well, the poster says 'let's'. I'll try and help you out with an example:scobienz wrote:I'm struggling to understand how anyone sensible and reasonable can look at this poster and claim that it's just a suggestion, it's not serious, and that any ordinary voter wouldn't have come to the conclusion that it's not a central policy plank of the Leave campaign. It's completely disingenuous.
SUGGESTION: Hey, Scoby, let's go out for a pint this weekend.
SERIOUS COMMITMENT: Scobienz, I will meet you in the snug at the Cock Inn at 7.30 Friday evening.
Now, can you see the difference?
TheGrimReaper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:45 pmSlavedog, you do not belong on this forum as you talk too much sense.
Because that is what is written on it in plain English.scobienz wrote:I'm struggling to understand how anyone sensible and reasonable can look at this poster and claim that it's just a suggestion, it's not serious, and that any ordinary voter wouldn't have come to the conclusion that it's not a central policy plank of the Leave campaign. It's completely disingenuous.
Another aspect of 'let's' I didn't mention is that it also requires agreement from the other party, eg. 'It's Wednesday, let's go to GSM for a laugh' reply 'Yeah, okay then'
How on Earth it can be construed as a promise is beyond me; this is a promise 'Vote for us and we will spend the EU money on the NHS'
The whole point of the poster, written in plain English, is that we will be making the decisions, it will be up to us how we spend our money, the major issue for the people who didn't vote leave because they are just thick, old, racist or all of the above.
My apologies if 1) the remainers don't understand plain English 2) are so desperate to say 'I told you so' that they seem to think
they can just completely ignore the English language to make a completely false point.
Anyway I think the economy and the already recovering pound is physically demonstrating how completely full of the proverbial the neighsayers and project fear were/are.
Don't get me started on the ludicrous 'NAZI propaganda' claims made by that Dutch moron about the 'poster' (the one that people went mental about trying to call everyone racists, yet again, because a police man who happened to be white ended up being obscured ??? WTF . Look mr Dutch man, was that photo taken in the European Union in the last year or so?', does it illustrate something that happening in Europe at the time and still is? Does it also illustrate the utterly incompetent way in which the EU is not actually dealing with the crisis but actually made it far worse. So how the fuck is that NAZI propaganda? Your EU , your creating of/exacerbating/ludicrously incompetent actions to deal with the problem. your event happening all over Europe.
If any remainers are still not sure of how the English language works, may I recommend Raymond Murphy, 'English Grammar in Use'. In the meantime here's a dictionary definition;
let's – let us
1. let's
You use let's when you are suggesting that you and someone else should do something. Let's is short for 'let us'. It is followed by an infinitive without to.
Let's go outside.
Let's decide what we want.
The full form let us is used with this meaning only in formal English.
Let us postpone the matter.
If you are suggesting that you and someone else should not do something, you say let's not.
Let's not talk about that.
Let's not waste time.
I think we have had enough of completely unfounded claims of foul play being made by the condescending, elitist, seemingly illiterate, left wing.
"Let us give our NHS the $350 million ... Vote Leave"
Not a cast iron promise perhaps, but a pretty clear statement of intent.
Honestly the brexit promises are empty, and these are weasel-word arguments.
Empty promises should be no surprise of course and were made on both sides, but they've been withdrawn almost comically quickly after the vote.
And the effects of this vote are permanent, so it's not just a case of "well we won't believe you next time then".
Not a cast iron promise perhaps, but a pretty clear statement of intent.
Honestly the brexit promises are empty, and these are weasel-word arguments.
Empty promises should be no surprise of course and were made on both sides, but they've been withdrawn almost comically quickly after the vote.
And the effects of this vote are permanent, so it's not just a case of "well we won't believe you next time then".
Last edited by electron on Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Seriously? "The EU was a big conspiracy, now thankfully it's gone, and we can throw ourselves into the free markets." Do you understand what a free market is? And that the entire goal of the EU is to have a 'common marketplace'? The vote was the opposite of supporting a free market.electron wrote:LOL. The EU was a big conspiracy, now thankfully it's gone, and we can throw ourselves into the free markets, which have our best interests at heart and are far more accountable.logos wrote:Let me get this right. You're seriously saying areas who get EU funding got it "because the EU is unpopular in those areas"?starkmonster wrote:Have you considered that the unpopularity of the EU in those areas was the reason they were getting the money? The bribe obviously didn't work.
You usually come up with relatively reasonable, or at least intelligent arguments. This is both far out there and incredibly stupid.
And regarding this "let's" nonsense -- ok, I think we all understand what "let us" means -- so why aren't they still saying "Yes, let's put 350 million pounds a week into the NHS"? Or "we should put," or even "we want to put"? The fact is that they know it's not possible, that there will never be 350 million pounds a week to put anywhere, and that there is no way it would ever all be able to be put into the NHS. So, instead of comparing it to "hey Scobie, let's get a beer Friday," it's more like "hey Scobie, I have a spaceship, let's get a beer on the moon Friday," and then after he says "OK," you say "oh no, that's clearly not possible, I shouldn't have suggested it and you're silly to have believed it."
Seriously? "The EU was a big conspiracy, now thankfully it's gone, and we can throw ourselves into the free markets." Do you understand what a free market is? And that the entire goal of the EU is to have a 'common marketplace'? The vote was the opposite of supporting a free market.
On the surface. The EU is a free, but controlled (and protected, somewhat like a worker's union) market. The global free market, much less so.
On the surface. The EU is a free, but controlled (and protected, somewhat like a worker's union) market. The global free market, much less so.
That's the ostensible goal, not the entire goal. We all know that the main goal is a politically united federalised Europe with Germany in charge.Miguelito wrote:And that the entire goal of the EU is to have a 'common marketplace'? The vote was the opposite of supporting a free market.
TheGrimReaper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:45 pmSlavedog, you do not belong on this forum as you talk too much sense.
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Within the EU there are numerous cases that were sent to the European Court of Justice where the UK was trying to hamper the open market of the EU. Do you think that now they are all of a sudden going to completely open up to the rest of the world? There are literally hundreds of cases, but I'll just point to one:electron wrote:Seriously? "The EU was a big conspiracy, now thankfully it's gone, and we can throw ourselves into the free markets." Do you understand what a free market is? And that the entire goal of the EU is to have a 'common marketplace'? The vote was the opposite of supporting a free market.
On the surface. Do you understand what and who has really been voted for? The EU is a free, but controlled (and protected) market. The global free market, much less so.
Case 121/85 Conegate Ltd v Commissioners of Customs and Excise [1986] ECR 1007.
The UK was banning sex dolls from other European nations (namely Germany, but that goes without saying, of course), although there was a domestic market available for them. The ECJ found that although Member states retain the sovereignty to ban goods based on public morality, they cannot place stricter controls on foreign goods than on domestic.
So, say goodbye to your sexy European sex dolls and enjoy the prude British ones, I guess is the moral of this story.
Not even close to a promise. How can it be any kind of promise when it requires your agreement?electron wrote:"Let us give our NHS the $350 million ... Vote Leave"
Not a cast iron promise perhaps, but a pretty clear statement of intent.
Honestly the brexit promises are empty, and these are weasel-word arguments.
Empty promises should be no surprise of course and were made on both sides, but they've been withdrawn almost comically quickly after the vote.
And the effects of this vote are permanent, so it's not just a case of "well we won't believe you next time then".
The point of that bus was to illustrate that we could be deciding how and where we spend our money and that you will be listened to in that process.
I'm sorry if your blind rage and hatred towards people with different political opinions has affected your ability to comprehend the English language.
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I will agree that that is not the entire goal. The basic economic aim of the single market is the optimal allocation of resources for the EU; this is built upon the Neo-classical economic theory of comparative advantage, which proposes that through the liberalization of trade not only will there be economic gains for all participants, but the welfare of all sides will also increase. However, this will not always be an immediate change, there can be short term loses in favor of long term solutions, and it can be a long incremental process. Europe has been addressing these issues for the past 65 plus years, since the conclusion of World War II. Several main points were recognized at that point in time, which have led to the continued integration of Europe, into the EU’s single market that we see today (well or until last week). Most importantly initially was a desire to curb nationalism, and create economies that were so intertwined that economically there could never be a plausible reason or ability to go to war, thereby preventing the same conditions that led to the rise of the Nazi party from happening again, with economic integration being a crucial part of that. Eventually, continued integration was also seen as necessary to compete with the U.S.slavedog wrote:That's the ostensible goal, not the entire goal. We all know that the main goal is a politically united federalised Europe with Germany in charge.Miguelito wrote:And that the entire goal of the EU is to have a 'common marketplace'? The vote was the opposite of supporting a free market.
Economic integration truly started to begin in 1951 with the signing of the Treaty of Paris and establishment of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), which was a precursor to the Treaty of Rome in 1957 that established the European Economic Community (EEC). By establishing a joint process separating the coal and steel production between Germany and France (and other states), French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman stated that “his plan is based on the idea that European unity is the key to peace. Solidarity in production he said would make war between France and Germany ‘not merely unthinkable but materially impossible.'”
Ironically, in 1963 when France's leader Charles de Gaulle refused to back the UK's application to join the EEC, he said that the British government lacked commitment to European integration. ((source: BBC) Funny how right he was, eh?
slavedog wrote:Well, the poster says 'let's'. I'll try and help you out with an example:scobienz wrote:I'm struggling to understand how anyone sensible and reasonable can look at this poster and claim that it's just a suggestion, it's not serious, and that any ordinary voter wouldn't have come to the conclusion that it's not a central policy plank of the Leave campaign. It's completely disingenuous.
SUGGESTION: Hey, Scoby, let's go out for a pint this weekend.
SERIOUS COMMITMENT: Scobienz, I will meet you in the snug at the Cock Inn at 7.30 Friday evening.
Now, can you see the difference?
Sorry slavedog, you can argue the semantics of this till the cows come home. In the political context of how the phrase was used you simply cannot brush this off as a vague suggestion.
I'm sure it's annoying to see your leaders backtrack on their key messages - fuck, even Farage is worried Gove and Johnson are backtracking now. But backtracking it is and people are rightly aghast.
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