Car crashes into crowd, kills one
Oh come on. Are you going to explain what you mean by a leftist dictatorship in the context of modern America or not? You can't say google it. I don't want to hear the Google definition; i want to hear what you think it would look like.
State owned means of production? Nationalisation of banks? Suppression of political parties. Nuclear disarmament? A resurgance of trades unionism?
And again, who will lead this dictatorship? You can't have a dictatorship without a dictator.
State owned means of production? Nationalisation of banks? Suppression of political parties. Nuclear disarmament? A resurgance of trades unionism?
And again, who will lead this dictatorship? You can't have a dictatorship without a dictator.
I saw this floating around today, and it reminded me of our discussion earlier in the week Alexandra.Alexandra wrote:Yes. Not because I like to listen to it all but because I know that censorship doesn't work.scobienz wrote:Do you believe all views are ok to express and promote, Alex? That people should be free to say whatever they want, no matter how evil or heinous or inciteful?
Popper articulates it much better than I ever could.
What bullshit logic. Orwell aptly called it doublethink.
"The final straw actually involved my mortal enemy vladimir, who you may or may not know is an insufferable, overposting asshat."
- Starving Pelican
- I am a Special Snowflake !!?!
- Reactions: 83
- Posts: 5850
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:21 pm
- Location: Cat Food Paradise
Don't think I agree with this, for a number of reasons:scobienz wrote:I saw this floating around today, and it reminded me of our discussion earlier in the week Alexandra.Alexandra wrote:Yes. Not because I like to listen to it all but because I know that censorship doesn't work.scobienz wrote:Do you believe all views are ok to express and promote, Alex? That people should be free to say whatever they want, no matter how evil or heinous or inciteful?
Popper articulates it much better than I ever could.
- Tolerating intolerance won't necessarily lead to "the intolerant" taking over. I'm a firm believer in letting people destroy their own reputations by allowing them to say what they like. Does anyone think people listen to those Islamic nutters? Those Neo Nazi nutters? Very few, I suspect.
- Who defines "intolerance", and at what point does it cease to be so? What's allowed and what isn't?
How ironic. I'm supporting the champion of the intellectual right in Karl Popper, and you're supporting the champion of the intellectual left.Edwardo wrote:What bullshit logic. Orwell aptly called it doublethink.
The world has turned upside down.
Starving Pelican wrote: Does anyone think people listen to those Islamic nutters? ?
Recent events in London suggest that emotionally ill-equipped and lost young men do, indeed, list to it. And act on it.
Just as events in Charlottsville suggests exactly the same.
With the same logic, would you refuse refugees from intolerant cultures? For example, would you say no to allowing Muslims move to the UK? Wouldn't it be a paradox to not be tolerant towards those who oppose democracy politically but remain tolerant to those who oppose democracy religiously?scobienz wrote:I saw this floating around today, and it reminded me of our discussion earlier in the week Alexandra.
Popper articulates it much better than I ever could.
If you don't want to take refugees from Muslim countries, you're racist. If you do want them you're importing intolerance. I spy with my eye a logical fallacy in your reasoning.
It defeats the purpose of democracy if not every voice is allowed to be heard.
Bless
Last edited by Alexandra on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alexandra wrote:With the same logic, would you refuse refugees from intolerant cultures? For example, would you say no to allowing Muslims move to the UK? Wouldn't it be a paradox to not be tolerant towards those who oppose democracy politically but remain tolerant to those who oppose democracy religiously?scobienz wrote:I saw this floating around today, and it reminded me of our discussion earlier in the week Alexandra.
Popper articulates it much better than I ever could.
Bless
I'm not following your logic.
If they are refugees from intolerant cultures then, by definition, they are seeking refuge from those intolerant cultures into what they see as a more tolerant culture. So of course I would allow Muslims to move to the UK. I know many muslims here in Sheffield - spend most evenings talking with them. Fuck, they even call me imam as a mark of respect to me being older and, therefore, presumably wiser. I've been teaching them chess, while smoking a shisha or two.
Never had any problem with immigration, providing it complies with immigration rules, which are beyond my powers to influence.
However, if an extremist muslim like the guy with a hook started to preach hatred - in other words, if he demonstrated hatred and intolerance - then i would expect a backlash both from the tolerant society and its laws to deal with it properly (which is exactly what happened), just as I would expect the laws to deal with a neo-nazi walking up and down the streets chanting death to Jews. Ipso facto, Popper's Paradox applies.
For example, a Muslim promoting Sharia law should not be welcome because it's incompatible with tolerance? Do you expect some level of assimilation or should Muslim immigrants be allowed to wear hijabs?scobienz wrote:However, if an extremist muslim like the guy with a hook started to preach hatred - in other words, if he demonstrated hatred and intolerance - then i would expect a backlash both from the tolerant society and its laws to deal with it properly (which is exactly what happened), just as I would expect the laws to deal with a neo-nazi walking up and down the streets chanting death to Jews. Ipso facto, Popper's Paradox applies.
I know I'm nitpicking and probably sound like a racist prick, but I'm curious about where you draw the line. Islam isn't really what I would call a tolerant religion so I think it would be relevant to know how much a Muslim needs to push you to not be welcome compared to a nazi.
Bless
- Machiavelli
- I've got nothing better to do
- Reactions: 0
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:27 pm
Yes, I believe we get it. You hate Trump. Everything is his fault.scobienz wrote:Trump condemns Nordstrom for not selling his daighter's handbags. He condemns republicans when they fail to vote for his healthcare package. He condemns the FBI, the secret service and his own AG.
Yet despite that abomination of a spectacle on the streeets of the US yesterday, when neo-nazis marched holding tiki torches, swastikas and were filmed shouting Seig Trump, he studiously avoided condemning the white supremacist movement. Again and again and again.
"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both." ~ Machiavelli
Alexandra wrote:For example, a Muslim promoting Sharia law should not be welcome because it's incompatible with tolerance? Do you expect some level of assimilation or should Muslim immigrants be allowed to wear hijabs?scobienz wrote:However, if an extremist muslim like the guy with a hook started to preach hatred - in other words, if he demonstrated hatred and intolerance - then i would expect a backlash both from the tolerant society and its laws to deal with it properly (which is exactly what happened), just as I would expect the laws to deal with a neo-nazi walking up and down the streets chanting death to Jews. Ipso facto, Popper's Paradox applies.
I know I'm nitpicking and probably sound like a racist prick, but I'm curious about where you draw the line. Islam isn't really what I would call a tolerant religion so I think it would be relevant to know how much a Muslim needs to push you to not be welcome compared to a nazi.
Bless
If we are going to nitpick, then we need to nitpick around definitions and relative understandings of the nature of various religions. Otherwise the debate is meaningless.
Take your statement that Islam isnt really what you would call a tolerant religion. If you focus on the extreme bastardisation of ancient texts as the basis for an understanding of a religion then Islam is not tolerant, in the same way that radical catholicism or anglicanism or sikhism isn't. But its most extreme variant is not the essence of a religion. Talk to any run of the mill muslim and they will abhor the excesses of the extreme fundamentalists and say it has nothing to do with their faith, but as - for example - any buddhist will recoil in horror at what is being done in their name again the minorities in Myanmar. But that's a well trodden path.
The point of tolerance is simple. We live in a society where there are accepted norms of behaviour, many of which are backed up by either the rule of law or by conventional standards of behaviour. If a guy like the hook dude extremist preaches hate, preaches that infidels must be beheaded, then that is clearly not tolerable. Neither is the nazi example I used before. Both should not be tolerated in or by a tolerant society.
You talk about those advocating sharia law as an example. Again a definitional certainty is needed. When people hear those words they immediately think of hand amputations. The reality again is that that is its most extreme, a literal transation of the 'eye for an eye' mantra that exists in both the Koran and Bible. No normal muslim thinks that is an acceptable implementation of Sharia Law in a modern society, and that it exists in tribal parts of the third world that more closely resemble the dark ages shouldnt muddy the waters of the debate.
The UK has dozens of Sharia Councils operating, as do many western countries. They deal with tedious rubbish like marriage or family disputes, and operate completely within the context of their host country's law. If a radical fundamentalist tried to bring in hand chopping, ie outside of the host country's laws and standards of acceptable behaviour, then THAT would be something that tolerant society should not tolerate.
Machiavelli wrote:[
Yes, I believe we get it. You hate Trump. Everything is his fault.
Not true. I love the fact he is the leader of the free world. The comedy value is great - it's a wonderful age to be living in. I genuinely look forward to the news each morning. It never disappoints.
So you advocate laws against chanting certain things? How would you suggest this be carried out? Ban certain words or phrases from being uttered under penalty of fines or incarceration or what? Would those rules apply to public and private property? Could the vocal Nazi legally shout out "death to lizards"?scobienz wrote: just as I would expect the laws to deal with a neo-nazi walking up and down the streets chanting death to Jews.
"The final straw actually involved my mortal enemy vladimir, who you may or may not know is an insufferable, overposting asshat."
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
-
Extremely peaceful attacker stabbed a diverse crowd
by Fred Edwards » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:28 am » in 'Not' Cambodia - 18 Replies
- 2299 Views
-
Last post by Fred Edwards
Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:13 am
-
-
-
Large crowd falls head over heels running from police
by Bong Burgundy » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:23 pm » in Cambodia Speakeasy - 8 Replies
- 2934 Views
-
Last post by Guest
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:35 am
-
-
- 17 Replies
- 4561 Views
-
Last post by RobW
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:13 pm
-
-
Train crashes into bus in Pursat- 45 injured
by Bong Burgundy » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:30 pm » in Cambodia News - 12 Replies
- 2559 Views
-
Last post by Spigzy
Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:01 am
-
-
-
Bus full of voters crashes in Battambang
by Bong Burgundy » Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:40 pm » in Cambodia News - 0 Replies
- 2627 Views
-
Last post by Bong Burgundy
Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:40 pm
-