Okay Conny, final attempt from me to elicit some kind of rational response: you say the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948 is irrelevant, and you believe that forces within Palestine and Iran have a neo-holocaust agenda that is wholly unconnected to the founding of that State. Well then, quote me the fundamentalist Islamic ideological literature from pre-WW2 Palestine and/or Iran (Persia) that is vehemently anti-semitic and called for the genocide of the Jews. If you fail to produce this evidence, will you accept that this is because it doesn't exist and for the reason that that very ideology was born as a reaction to the abuses and injustices created by the birth of the State of Israel, a birth that came about after Jewish terrorists (and subsequent heroic statesmen) murdered 200 diplomats in the King David hotel in Jerusalem who had gathered to discuss a negotiated settlement for Jews and Palestinians to share the territory peacefully and with justice? No? I rest my case.connecticuter wrote:I never said the causes of regional conflict are outside the bounds of debate. As I said earlier, we seem to have a disagreement over the nature of the causes. In my view the regional causes are rooted in a. fundamentalist Islamic ideology that calls for the murder of jews as part of the religious duty of jihad, and b. dictatorial nations using the plight of palestinians to distract their own repressed publics and as a pretext for their own political machinations. In contrast, you seem to be argueing that a. the very nature that Israel exists is cause, and b. the claim that Israel was founded by terror (which reasonable people can disagree about - it is more complex than that)....Finally, I do not think it is important to the discussion at hand about how Israel was founded. The founding of the US was a complicated bloody and less than lawful (by todays standards) affair. Native American Indians are not getting the land back: end of story. The reality on the ground, here today, and not old grievances must guide our analysis and policy recommendations.andyinasia wrote:If I felt that there was a sensible and rational discussion to be had, I might make the time to dig out facts and figures. Now in Conny's last response to me he's saying the CAUSES of the conflict are outside the parameters of his debate, presumably because they rather seriously undermine his extremism; therefore, he wants to focus the debate on imagined scenarios. Sorry, I just don't have the time to waste.
Terrorist Attack in Bangkok, Iranian Involved
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I came, I argued, I'm out
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Okay jm, have to pretty much concede to the accuracy of your valid factual points. I do think it's worth noting that in the period you refer to at the beginning - the intermediate years between WW1 and WW2 the population of Jews in Palestine had bloated from about 5% (quiet and comfortably accommodated) to 33% - a huge and disorganised increase, understandably causing Palestinian concern. Anyway, I'm not a specialist historian, nor is this an area in which I have a personal or particular interest - and I REALLY don't have time to get more involved in the debate. My main motivation for getting involved was to take to task Conny on his methodology. You might broadly share his position of defending Israel, but the nature of your argument is, for me, reasonable and rational. Whilst if I had more time, I could engage you further, in the circs I'm happy to leave you with the last word (on me, I mean; it's not my thread!).
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- connecticuter
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Thank you Mr. Belvedere. We can always count on you for your witty and insightful writing.horace wrote:I still say the bloke's a nutter, Mr C that is, not the delightful Mr lear.
I would not say it is irrelevant in general. Rather, I think it is irrelevant regarding the crafting of policy. The foundation of Israel clearly did go some way in enhancing Islamic hatred of Jews. But that is not going to help us in crafting policy - other than suggesting removal of the jews from Israel, which is not a realistic option.andyinasia wrote: Okay Conny, final attempt from me to elicit some kind of rational response: you say the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948 is irrelevant, and you believe that forces within Palestine and Iran have a neo-holocaust agenda that is wholly unconnected to the founding of that State.
The koran, the hadith, and the commentaries.andyinasia wrote:Well then, quote me the fundamentalist Islamic ideological literature from pre-WW2 Palestine and/or Iran (Persia) that is vehemently anti-semitic and called for the genocide of the Jews. If you fail to produce this evidence, will you accept that this is because it doesn't exist and for the reason that that very ideology was born as a reaction to the abuses and injustices created by the birth of the State of Israel, a birth that came about after Jewish terrorists (and subsequent heroic statesmen) murdered 200 diplomats in the King David hotel in Jerusalem who had gathered to discuss a negotiated settlement for Jews and Palestinians to share the territory peacefully and with justice? No? I rest my case.
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As far as atrocities are concerned, I am not in denial. I admit such things have happened. They also almost always happen in conflict, even despite the best efforts of a nation to avoid them. Again, I put Israel's actions in the context of being surrounded by a sea of hostile arab neighbors and being constantly assaulted by palestinian terrorism. Given decades of such crisis, I see their conduct in general as measured.
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I presume these comments are addressed to me, since you (as your wishes towards the Palestinian people show) refuse to acknowledge that some people exist. I don't think any genocidal actions are 'measured'. But thank you for conceding that atrocities do happen on both sides. Amen to that. I think you are misguided, but respect your right to hold those views.connecticuter wrote:
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As far as atrocities are concerned, I am not in denial. I admit such things have happened. They also almost always happen in conflict, even despite the best efforts of a nation to avoid them. Again, I put Israel's actions in the context of being surrounded by a sea of hostile arab neighbors and being constantly assaulted by palestinian terrorism. Given decades of such crisis, I see their conduct in general as measured.
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I think we need to re title this thread as according to;
Gen Panlop Pinmanee adviser to the prime minister
and from Sukumpol Suwanatat Defense Minister,
Gen Panlop Pinmanee adviser to the prime minister
"the bombs used were just small bombs. I don't think they would be used for terror purposes"
and from Sukumpol Suwanatat Defense Minister,
" Some bad people made some bombs. There was an explosion. That's the end of it"
"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer." HST
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connie, one question (which needs a yes/no answer):
Do you think that the creation of the State of Israel was a democratic process? IOW, was everyone involved (I'm not referring to Arabs, they're just 'not the chosen race' animals) consulted and asked for their opinions?
Because you always run to 'democracy' as a defence.
Do you think that the creation of the State of Israel was a democratic process? IOW, was everyone involved (I'm not referring to Arabs, they're just 'not the chosen race' animals) consulted and asked for their opinions?
Because you always run to 'democracy' as a defence.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
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connie is right-wing.
He has the choice and the right to choose that path.
I think I - or any person - have/has the right to ask him if he fully understands his choice, and to question if he applies the same principles to Israelis as he does to Palestinians.
It seems 'messy' covers a lot of human rights abuses which are frighteningly similar to Nazi/ dictator type situations.
Just because they're your friends, doesn't mean they can't become/ shouldn't ever be your enemies.
Otherwise, all that shit you learned at university was a waste of time, and just talk. Live it or shut up.
He has the choice and the right to choose that path.
I think I - or any person - have/has the right to ask him if he fully understands his choice, and to question if he applies the same principles to Israelis as he does to Palestinians.
It seems 'messy' covers a lot of human rights abuses which are frighteningly similar to Nazi/ dictator type situations.
Just because they're your friends, doesn't mean they can't become/ shouldn't ever be your enemies.
Otherwise, all that shit you learned at university was a waste of time, and just talk. Live it or shut up.
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
I don't think this is a right wing or left wing issue.
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
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Of course, in the beginning the Brits, Arabs, Palestinians and the Jews were all involved in the process. Eventually, like most things, it got complicated.vladimir wrote:connie, one question (which needs a yes/no answer):
Do you think that the creation of the State of Israel was a democratic process? IOW, was everyone involved (I'm not referring to Arabs, they're just 'not the chosen race' animals) consulted and asked for their opinions?
Because you always run to 'democracy' as a defence.
Here is something I did not know:Every major Arab leader objected in principle to the right of the Jews to an independent state in Palestine, reflecting the policies of the Arab League.
The UN General Assembly voted on the Partition Plan on November 29, 1947. Thirty-three states voted in favor of the Plan, while 13 countries opposed it. Ten countries abstained from the vote. The Yishuv accepted the plan, but the Arabs in Palestine and the surrounding Arab states rejected the plan. The Arab countries (all of which had opposed the plan) proposed to query the International Court of Justice on the competence of the General Assembly to partition a country against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants, but were again defeated.[citation needed] The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal from the territory (May 15, 1948).
The approval of the plan sparked attacks carried out by Arab irregulars against the Jewish population in Palestine. Fighting began almost as soon as the plan was approved. Shooting, stoning, and rioting continued apace in the following days. The consulates of Poland and Sweden, both of whose governments had voted for partition, were attacked. Bombs were thrown into cafes, Molotov cocktails were hurled at shops, and a synagogue was set on fire. As the British evacuation from the region progressed, the violence became more prevalent. Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast on each others' heels, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides in the process. The sanguinary impasse persisted as no force intervened to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence. During the first two months of the war, about 1,000 people were killed and 2,000 injured. By the end of March, the figure had risen to 2,000 dead and 4,000 wounded.
On May 14, one day before the British Mandate expired, David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of the State of Israel. The declaration of the state referred to the decision of the UN General Assembly as a legal justification for the establishment of the state. In accordance with the UN Resolution, the Declaration promised that the State of Israel would ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex, and guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.
wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... n_conflictDuring the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine ties were made between the Arab leadership in Palestine and the Nazi movement in Germany. These connections led to cooperation between the Palestinian national movement and the Axis powers later on during World War II. In May 1941 Amin al-Husayni issued a fatwa for a holy war against Britain. In 1941 during a meeting with Adolf Hitler Amin al-Husayni asked Germany to oppose, as part of the Arab struggle for independence, the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. He received a promise from Hitler that Germany would eliminate the existing Jewish foundations in Palestine after the Germans had gained victory in the war. During the war Amin al-Husayni joined the Nazis, serving with the Waffen SS in Bosnia and Yugoslavia. In addition, during the war a joint Palestinian-Nazi military operation was held in the region of Palestine. These factors caused a deterioration in the relations between the Palestinian leadership and the British, which turned to collaborate with the Yeshuv during the period known as the 200 days of dread.
wikipedia
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The original tangent was about Iran's nuclear weapons program and Israel's proper response to it. A new tangent developed. What I would like to know from some of the posters is the following:
1. Aside from packing up and leaving Israel and granting a right of return (which are both unrealistic and intolerable), what should the Israelis do?
2. Do you think that if Israel unilaterally withdrew from both gaza and the westbank, removed all settlers, paid financial reparations, ended the blockade of gaza, removed the security fence, provided the palestinians with a contiguous border, etc..., that there would then be peace between Israel, the palestinians and their arab neighbors? I do not.
3. If the US ceased protecting Israel, do you think a genocide would occur? I do.
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Connie, I, for one, really don't know. I only wish the killing and maiming from both sides would stop and both sides be made to discuss things seriously and willingly. Perhaps the reasonable people from both sides could unite and say "Enough is enough". But that's not likely either because the nutcases would soon put a stop to that. Intransigence is intransigence. The whole thing is a mess and will only get worse unless some serious concessions are made.
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- connecticuter
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When I said that the right of return and/or the removal of Jews from Israel was intolerable, I meant the following. Both options are not realistic policy suggestions.
I would use a few examples from the US to illustrate what I am saying.
During the revolutionary war many tories fled to Canada. If their ancestors claimed that they had a right of return, I do not see it likely that anyone would take that seriously.
We can all agree that the slave trade in early American history was a terrible thing. Supposing that the descendants of the slaves could trace their lineage to a particular African nation (which is often impossible to do), would you say they had a right of return? Would you say those African nations would be obligated to give them citizenship?
The history of the state of Texas is controversial. However, I think most would agree that by and large it was taken from Mexico. Would you hold that texas ought to be returned and/or that Mexicans whose ancestors fled texas had a right of return?
Would you suggest that the state of Connecticut should be divided up between the various indigenous tribes that remain today? Should the 3.5 million people of Connecticut up and leave?
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In practically every country you will find that existing population had supplanted an earlier population. Where do the claims end? This is why I have been stressing the need to consider facts on the ground as they are when constructing a compromise.
Providing a right of return to all the descenants of the original Palestinian refugees is just not realistic.
I would use a few examples from the US to illustrate what I am saying.
During the revolutionary war many tories fled to Canada. If their ancestors claimed that they had a right of return, I do not see it likely that anyone would take that seriously.
We can all agree that the slave trade in early American history was a terrible thing. Supposing that the descendants of the slaves could trace their lineage to a particular African nation (which is often impossible to do), would you say they had a right of return? Would you say those African nations would be obligated to give them citizenship?
The history of the state of Texas is controversial. However, I think most would agree that by and large it was taken from Mexico. Would you hold that texas ought to be returned and/or that Mexicans whose ancestors fled texas had a right of return?
Would you suggest that the state of Connecticut should be divided up between the various indigenous tribes that remain today? Should the 3.5 million people of Connecticut up and leave?
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In practically every country you will find that existing population had supplanted an earlier population. Where do the claims end? This is why I have been stressing the need to consider facts on the ground as they are when constructing a compromise.
Providing a right of return to all the descenants of the original Palestinian refugees is just not realistic.
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I think the original recommendation to set up the Israel/Palestine issue as a separate thread was a good idea because it is a complex issue and is kinda separate from idiot Iranians throwing grenades at taxis in Thailand. But the Iranian Embassy has assured us it has nothing to do with Iran. The Thai gov't has assured us this is in now way a terrorist action. That makes me feel SOOO MUCH SAFER!!!
From what I've seen in the media there's a high probability it wasn't an Iranian government operation. Much too amateurish.
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