You're right fopro. I'm not interested in point-scoring here, just trying to bring an element of reason to the debate.
I did urge the kids to tell the police the full truth and not allow the mother to manipulate them. Prolly a vain hope, and I don't know the mother to speak to. I was expecting further official investigation to bring all this out in the next day or two but if not, I will get back to the kids; I think my phone can record (never tried it) and I could forward what I know to the police.
Tennessean arrested for debauchery
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Word from the US is that the guy's lawyer is on the way to Cambodia from Tennessee. Andy, you should meet with him. Keep an eye out for a white haired dude in a seersucker suit, which is what I envision all Southern lawyers looking like.
I think you're much better off videotaping the conversation on a cell phone or camera or something, if at all. If it's just an audio tape recording, there can be a lot of trouble confirming whose voices are on it.
I think you're much better off videotaping the conversation on a cell phone or camera or something, if at all. If it's just an audio tape recording, there can be a lot of trouble confirming whose voices are on it.
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Right. Here's the look on his lawyer's face when Roger gave him the "they were sleeping with me because they were scared" explanation.You're confusing Kentucky with Tennessee
There's also a lengthy discussion of all this on the website of his hometown newspaper, the Clarksville Leaf Chronicle. It's interesting because some of the posters there actually know Roger. Here's a sampling of their gossipy posts.
There is No Way this man has done anything but be kind. I have known him for ten years or so, and he is innocent of these charges. He is an honest, caring, giving, sharing man. I am so angry that he has been set up, when he has been so giving to this country.
The only one who knows for sure what this man is or is not capable of his himself.
Anyone else, including his mother, wife, daughter, pastor or barber, has no real clue.
But, from an outsider's view looking in, it ain't going to well for him right now.
The weird thing is that I know Mr. Green (he's a roofer), and the weirder thing is that it ain't looking good for him.
He was my roofer and he wasn't creepy when he worked on my house, but what do I know?
This does not look good at all...innocent or guilty! With his daughter coming out saying the things she is saying only makes it look worse for him. If she wasn't there, then she really doesn't know.
And maybe you should check for peep holes in your roof!
Having been in the orient for more than I wanted to be, You have to remember now the Islam radicals are now in most of the goverments, and in the countries. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Americans are infidels. Or it could be the anti american communist league, wow,, think of the possibilities, of people framing him.
"Family says local man wrongly accused"
Do we really expect the family to say otherwise?
I can see the headline now: "Local sexual predator thrown under the bus by family. Family states he's had a Vietnamese houseboy for years."
Post subject: What the daughter hasnt mentioned
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She use to travel to cambodia with her father,from time to time.She hasnt mentioned that when she did,the father got her a room at a seperate hotel.Sometimes there was none available so he had to get one at the same hotel and he always made sure it was several floors away and on the opposite side of the building.This guy is a local contractor in clarksville for those that asked what he does for money.It has been known in certain circles that something wasnt right with him and children.But all that being said he still deserves to be thought innocent till proven guilty.There are people overseas that are out to get americans even in non muslim countries.
Like everyone else who has speculated about this case, I, too, find it all bizarre. Why are two girls--11 and 8--staying overnight with a man with whom they are not related?
And, if Mr. Green really wanted to "help people," he could have done it right here in this wonderful state of Tennessee. Why go to Cambodia to help people when there are more than enough people right here in America who could use his help?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't this the same man who went to Thailand and brought home a bride? Who left him shorty there after, if memory serves me correctly he tried to get another bride from there.
From what I remember when he was working at my house, he took my (what I purchased) large box of nails. I'm not sure where this charitable stuff is coming from, since he takes nails from jobsites. Does he give roofing nails out to the kids in need?
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Having been in the orient for more than I wanted to be, You have to remember now the Islam radicals are now in most of the goverments, and in the countries. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Americans are infidels. Or it could be the anti american communist league, wow,, think of the possibilities, of people framing him.
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Please, somebody buy that hick a world map and a clue.Having been in the orient for more than I wanted to be, You have to remember now the Islam radicals are now in most of the goverments, and in the countries. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Americans are infidels. Or it could be the anti american communist league, wow,, think of the possibilities, of people framing him.
"We, the sons of John Company, have arrived"
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I have further information - WARNING: it's pretty ugly.
The two children in question have been taken out of circulation, unavailable to talk with their friends as well as myself. By whom and why I'll come on to presently.
I'll simply relate what I was told yesterday by other older, savvy kids who have been selling books on the Riverside for years - kids whom on this issue I trust and believe they are telling me what they perceive to be the truth. I'll leave you to interpret in your own ways.
They tell me the guy came to Phnom Penh last year. He treated a few of the kids, bought them food, bought their books and was generally kind to them. He particularly wanted to help those two sisters and arranged with the mother to send money over after he left. Thus for the past year he had sent money for their education. He thus felt that he had a trusting relationship with the family, which is why he was met off the plane by them and why he took them all to a hotel.
I don't have access to the primary witnesses to find out what happened - if anything - in the hotel, but as far as I know those girls didn't relate any tales of abuse to their friends. He may have been naive and foolish, but none of them have implied to me that they suspect him to have committed any illegal or immoral act.
Here's where I learned of what sounds like a very sinister development. I was completely unaware of this but according to the book-sellers, the streets are crawling with spies – employees of NGOs who officially claim to be child protection agencies, generously funded by Western benefactors. These people follow the children and take photographs of any men talking to them. Now on the surface that sounds reasonable behaviour if the organizations really are out to protect the children. So why do all the children feel creeped out by these people? Why do the children regard them with the same mind as they regard the police? They never talk to the kids or their families – why?
Okay, here is some personal interpretation: they are paid by Western (usually Church) organisations whipped up by Western media with no experience of life in this part of the world; their funds are renewed according to results – i.e. convictions. They have a vested interest in nailing this guy. Hence they are ‘preparing’ the two sisters and their mother to testify against him. The children who talk to me don’t know the political subtleties; they simplify the matter to - the police want money, the NGOs want money.
If these kids are right, it is dangerously naive to simplistically trust the authorities to 'do an investigation'. It appears that justice is not the highest factor on their agenda. Personally, I hope to god the kids are wrong; I don't want the NGOs to be what some of you cynics paint them to be, but my instincts tell me the kids are perceptive.
The two children in question have been taken out of circulation, unavailable to talk with their friends as well as myself. By whom and why I'll come on to presently.
I'll simply relate what I was told yesterday by other older, savvy kids who have been selling books on the Riverside for years - kids whom on this issue I trust and believe they are telling me what they perceive to be the truth. I'll leave you to interpret in your own ways.
They tell me the guy came to Phnom Penh last year. He treated a few of the kids, bought them food, bought their books and was generally kind to them. He particularly wanted to help those two sisters and arranged with the mother to send money over after he left. Thus for the past year he had sent money for their education. He thus felt that he had a trusting relationship with the family, which is why he was met off the plane by them and why he took them all to a hotel.
I don't have access to the primary witnesses to find out what happened - if anything - in the hotel, but as far as I know those girls didn't relate any tales of abuse to their friends. He may have been naive and foolish, but none of them have implied to me that they suspect him to have committed any illegal or immoral act.
Here's where I learned of what sounds like a very sinister development. I was completely unaware of this but according to the book-sellers, the streets are crawling with spies – employees of NGOs who officially claim to be child protection agencies, generously funded by Western benefactors. These people follow the children and take photographs of any men talking to them. Now on the surface that sounds reasonable behaviour if the organizations really are out to protect the children. So why do all the children feel creeped out by these people? Why do the children regard them with the same mind as they regard the police? They never talk to the kids or their families – why?
Okay, here is some personal interpretation: they are paid by Western (usually Church) organisations whipped up by Western media with no experience of life in this part of the world; their funds are renewed according to results – i.e. convictions. They have a vested interest in nailing this guy. Hence they are ‘preparing’ the two sisters and their mother to testify against him. The children who talk to me don’t know the political subtleties; they simplify the matter to - the police want money, the NGOs want money.
If these kids are right, it is dangerously naive to simplistically trust the authorities to 'do an investigation'. It appears that justice is not the highest factor on their agenda. Personally, I hope to god the kids are wrong; I don't want the NGOs to be what some of you cynics paint them to be, but my instincts tell me the kids are perceptive.
I came, I argued, I'm out
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AndyHere's where I learned of what sounds like a very sinister development. I was completely unaware of this but according to the book-sellers, the streets are crawling with spies – employees of NGOs who officially claim to be child protection agencies, generously funded by Western benefactors. These people follow the children and take photographs of any men talking to them. Now on the surface that sounds reasonable behaviour if the organizations really are out to protect the children. So why do all the children feel creeped out by these people? Why do the children regard them with the same mind as they regard the police? They never talk to the kids or their families – why?
Okay, here is some personal interpretation: they are paid by Western (usually Church) organisations whipped up by Western media with no experience of life in this part of the world; their funds are renewed according to results – i.e. convictions. They have a vested interest in nailing this guy. Hence they are ‘preparing’ the two sisters and their mother to testify against him. The children who talk to me don’t know the political subtleties; they simplify the matter to - the police want money, the NGOs want money.
This is what happens when unaccountable organisations with their OWN political agendas are given quasi police powers.
Watch your back kiddo, because they'll be reading this thread and they won't like it.
assclown
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I remember reading rumors on another site that the riverfront bookseller kids may be heavily influenced by NGOs using them as bait for Western pedos. Perhaps it's true.
Is the local Western press investigating any of this, other than reporting the details of the arrest and photogrpahing the perp walk? If Andy could talk to the girls a few days ago, why couldn't a reporter? Why not interview Roger in jail since he seems eager to defend himself? Or interview the mother? Or interview the hotel staff? Or see if the guy's emails to the girls were incriminating? I'd think for couple of bucks any Khmer would sing like canary about anything at all.
Has any member of the press asked the police "Have the children reported that they were abused?" One AP artcile specifically reported that he was accused of debauchery with only one girl, but it was unclear why. I haven't seen the CD lately so perhaps some of this has in fact been covered. But so far, the Tennessee media seems to have more details about the story than the local press.
Cat Barton did probe into the German house of horrors a few months ago; maybe she can get to the bottom of this.
Is the local Western press investigating any of this, other than reporting the details of the arrest and photogrpahing the perp walk? If Andy could talk to the girls a few days ago, why couldn't a reporter? Why not interview Roger in jail since he seems eager to defend himself? Or interview the mother? Or interview the hotel staff? Or see if the guy's emails to the girls were incriminating? I'd think for couple of bucks any Khmer would sing like canary about anything at all.
Has any member of the press asked the police "Have the children reported that they were abused?" One AP artcile specifically reported that he was accused of debauchery with only one girl, but it was unclear why. I haven't seen the CD lately so perhaps some of this has in fact been covered. But so far, the Tennessee media seems to have more details about the story than the local press.
Cat Barton did probe into the German house of horrors a few months ago; maybe she can get to the bottom of this.
Good point.This is what happens when unaccountable organisations with their OWN political agendas are given quasi police powers.
Watch your back kiddo, because they'll be reading this thread and they won't like it.
And just so that it is perfectly clear who is responsible for having this man jailed:
I wonder what suspicious activity it was that APLE staff saw that caused them to alert the police?Katherine Keane, country director of the anti-pedophile NGO Action Pour Les Enfants, said her group alerted the police to Green the day he was arrested. "He was seen by APLE staff and we of course immediately alerted the anti-trafficking unit," she said.
Cambodia Daily, "US Man and Cambodian Woman Jailed for Alleged Child Sex Abuse," Jan, 3, 2007
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APLE have, how shall we say, a bit of history, when it comes to investigating foreigners.
By Kimina Lyall in Phnom Penh
The Australian (Australian daily)
May 01, 2004
DAVID Ford, an Australian high school teacher who worked as a volunteer chemistry and biology adviser at Royal Phnom Penh University, says that he did not sleep with underage Cambodian boys but it was not for lack of opportunity.
On his daily walk from his small first-floor apartment to the restaurants along the Mekong River, he says he would often be approached by young men asking if he wanted to "dek" or "sleep" – shorthand for paying for sex.
"It was depressing, a sign of the desperation and poverty that these kids would do that," he tells The Weekend Australian. Eventually the boys stopped asking – deterred by his refusals – and were happy instead to sell him a newspaper.
In the five years Ford, originally from NSW, has lived in Cambodia, he says he befriended some of the teenagers, and occasionally they came to his home to practise English, play computer games and empty his refrigerator.
But in early March, while riding his motorcycle to work, he was intercepted by a bank of police officers who "invited" him for questioning. Two weeks later, he celebrated his 50th birthday in Prey Sar prison as a judge began an investigation into allegations he had sexually abused underage boys.
The investigating judge last week tossed Ford's case out of court. From the beginning the case was flawed. One of the young men told police Ford had a voice like a transvestite; another initially said he had a tattoo on his left arm before later retracting that part of his statement. Both descriptions were objectively incorrect.
In Cambodia, the strength of the evidence has not always been the key factor in determining the outcome of child-sex allegations. When Briton John Keeler faced court in 2000, he was remorseful about filming two naked girls, eight and 10, and downloading the images on to his computer. But when his three-year sentence was announced, he cursed his lawyer and threw tables around the courtroom, telling observers he had paid $US5000 in bribes and had been promised an acquittal.
Other anecdotal evidence confirms that approach. One Westerner who has faced recent debauchery charges – Cambodia's term for pedophilia – tells The Weekend Australian that during his police interview his translator quietly suggested $US1000 ($1385) would solve the problem; by the time his case got to court it had risen to $US10,000. A foreign pedophile investigator who also doesn't want to be identified says perpetrators on internet chat rooms boast about how easy it is to get youngsters in Cambodia without getting caught - but warn each other to "take cash, just in case".
The international community has long wrung its hands about the problem of an estimated 25,000 child prostitutes in Cambodia. Nowhere is the problem as obvious as Svay Pak – a shantytown village 11km from Phnom Penh's centre where Vietnamese mamasams sell and resell perhaps 500 Vietnamese children in Cambodia's worst-kept secret.
But Ford's case highlights a new level of the legal, ethical, and political ambiguities surrounding the investigation of child sex offences in Cambodia: that of the practices of non-government organisations such as aid groups.
"If an NGO is prepared to give them another $2 to dob in a pedophile, then they'll dob in a pedophile. The NGO might take them for a drive up the riverbank street and say, 'Point out all the pedophiles' and if it's $2 a time, they'll point out anybody," says a confidential foreign source.
No one as yet accuses any particular NGO of going quite that far. But in Ford's case, the organisation Action Pour Les Enfants broke some of the classic rules police officers across the world use to investigate serious crimes.The investigation began, says APLE director Hang Vibol, when in the course of his regular trips to Phnom Penh's open spaces where street kids play, hawk flowers or beg, he asked a boy how he fed himself and was told he slept with foreigners.
Hang says he asked the boy to show him one such location and was taken to what turned out to be Ford's home. But then the child, who Hang says was about 11, disappeared. But next day Hang's investigative team made contact with another boy, now 18, who had once slept in the NGO's shelter. The boy, nicknamed Svet, pointed to Ford, who happened to be walking nearby at the time, and said he had had sex with him four years ago (a time that would place him below the recognised legal age of consent, 15). He then took Hang to the same house.
Svet, who was independently contacted by The Weekend Australian without the knowledge of Ford or Hang, at first said he didn't remember if he slept with Ford, but later in the conversation said he slept with a man he believed to be Ford. Still later, however, asked to describe Ford's flat and his appearance, the boy said Ford lived in a single room and had black, greying and a slightly bald head. In fact, Ford lives in a two-room apartment and is strikingly fair. (He is, however, balding.)
Svet gave a statement to the NGO, demanding $US10,000 in compensation, and later told his story, which included the retracted reference to a tattoo, to police. But by the time it got to court, Svet's allegations could no longer be verified - investigating judge Nup Sophon couldn't find him to question him.
Hang's NGO, however, found another two boys who looked at a photograph of Ford shown by APLE and claimed without any substantiation that he had had sex with them. But Hang insists they were never encouraged to accuse nor were they paid for their statements. Ford denies this allegation.
"Our strategy is not to give money to the child," he says. "We need to help them for the future, not today or tomorrow."
Australian Federal Police were also involved in the investigation, which at one point was seeking 15 potential victims. By the time the formal court investigation began, there were only two. Both told the judge they had never seen Ford and had never slept with him. Hang alleges one of the boy's touts told his field worker they were offered money by an unknown party to change their statement.
Svet's own reasons for not pursuing his complaint are as stark. "I went to court before against a Frenchman," he says, "but I didn't get any money."
Only 5 per cent of Cambodia's sex industry clients are foreigners: Western tourists make up a small number. The street kids are organised by touts, usually motorcycle taxi riders barely older than them. The children might be paid $US10 to $US20 for oral sex, but they are promised thousands of dollars in compensation from the perpetrator if a conviction is secured.
Until recently, that was never. It was only after US internet pornographer Dan Sandler boasted to a local newspaper that Cambodia's women were the country's biggest export asset that the country's police force took action, deporting him to the US in 1999 in one of the first high-profile cases. Since then, cases have been mounted against more than a dozen foreigners, with six convictions.
Mu Sochua, the Women's Affairs Minister, who was once a lone voice attempting to shame her Government into action, says Sandler's open humiliation of the country was the turning point activating political will.
Some of the highest profile cases since then include that of Australians Bart Lauwaert and Clint Betterridge, who were convicted last January of raping their maids in their Siem Reap home. Lauwaert was sentenced to 20 years in jail – the first pedophile to attract the maximum sentence – while Betterridge created a diplomatic storm by escaping justice with a fresh passport given to him by the embassy. Australian Justice Minister Chris Ellison will shortly decide whether to grant Cambodia's request to return him to serve his 10-year sentence.
But now Mu is concerned that poor collation of evidence by NGOs may begin to bring the high-profile successes undone.
"I am as much concerned about innocent people being brought to court as the protection of our children and the prosecution of people who have really committed a crime in our country. We have been successful so far, but one or two more cases where the evidence does not stand in court would jeopardise that work. I don't want to put the NGOs in that position where questions are raised," Mu says.
About 50 of the 500 NGOs in Cambodia deal exclusively with children – and most of them are competing for millions in aid money. Aid workers claim other problems are as pressing on Cambodia's future – HIV, for example, or malnutrition – but sex tourism attracts the dollars.
Sok Sam Oeun, the executive director of the Cambodian Defenders Project, an NGO that represents young victims and perpetrators of crime and has acted for 90 sex trafficking cases in the past six years, says NGOs still need to be involved in the investigation work.
He argues that police, who he claims are the main beneficiaries of the sex industry, act only when they are shamed into doing so by evidence presented by others. "Look at the cases that come to court. Which ones are they?" he asks. "The ones where NGOs have been involved."
Hang, whose organisation also was involved in allegations against former Australian ambassador John Holloway, which failed in an Australian court, admits that his high-profile cases have pleased his donors and led to increased grants. "Yes, of course," he says. "They have increased my funding because of our convictions."
Of 45 cases APLE has investigated, 44 of the accused are foreigners. Why? "Foreigners come to meet the streets boys in places we know because we work with street children," he says. "Foreigners [exploiting children] are easy to find."
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