May as well right?
Hybrids in Cambodia. Are they worth it?
I remember a while ago someone asked me if a Prius was a sensible car for fuel economy in Cambodia. Makes sense right? Lots of start and stop and what better way of lulling around than a battery assisted monster?
Hybrids are an area of controversy (for many reasons), but in terms of "trying one out", not many people are willing to take a risk. So for the sake of posting here to inform the public, my family and I decided to take the plunge. (Okay, the post wasn't the main reason for buying it...) We did buy a Prius though (for the hell of it honestly), and to share our recent experiences with it as well as mechanical and ownership insights, I thought I'd share.
Meet "Goldfish", our "test car" for this post, and the newest addition to the "family". Please note, this is my 3rd Prius, so while this actual car has only been ours for 4 days, I've clocked up many many miles on Prii as well as wrenched on a few.
Is it worth it?
To answer this question to a potential owner, we're going to look at three different important points.
1. Buy in price
2. Fuel savings
3. Maintenance and upkeep
1. Buy in price
Ironically, while hybrids are often prohibitively expensive to buy elsewhere, one very enticing point about the Prius in Cambodia is actually the low purchase price. Making use of a 1.5 liter petrol 4 cylinder motor, this is the only midsize car that falls into anywhere near this low of a tax bracket and hence, the buy in cost is not nearly as high as similar cars of it's size and age. So for roughly $10-14k, it's actually possible to get a wreck free 05-06 Prius, whereas a Camry would need to be easily 4 or 5 years older and likely a previous wreck.
For example, Goldfish is a 2006 and it's straight from the U.S., untouched and unwrecked, although the tire went flat the day after we bought it. It cost a "mere" $12,300, although it's not really in great condition to be honest. However, to get a shiner fixed up car, expect to pay $13k+, and a if you go for something that is in good original condition that is unwrecked, $14.5k+ Compared to cars like an 07+ Camry (where the MSRPs and resell values are nearly identical in the US), the Camry would easily top $20k+ here simply due to the size of it's motor. Couple that to it's average fuel consumption of 16 mpg US (my average from before), and the 48 mpg US rating of the bulbous Prius seems to really be a strong selling point.
***Plus 1 for the Prius here, and this leads us to our next point...
2. Fuel economy
So, while the Prius does carry a 46 mpg US combined rating, the same real world Cambodia 16 mpg Camry carries a 27 mpg combined rating for the US. Let's face it, Cambodia isn't the nicest place for cars and fuel economy. However, the Prius is capable of running on EV mode (electricity only) to keep itself going in town (no idling). This in theory should be great for Cambodia, and that's honestly why I wanted to try a Prius out.
Cutting to the chase though, after 400 km of "lovely" Cambodian driving, I managed to average...
26.8 mpg US. Actually, the computer lied. I really got 23.3 mpg (manual calculation). For those lazy to do the math, that's LESS THAN HALF of the 48 mpg city rating, (ironically 48% of the 48 mpg).
**Yes, before you balk at the mpg numbers, the car is in fine running condition and everything is functional**
As to why such low fuel mileage though, it took me a while before I figured out why. I gave it a lot of thought as I was honestly expecting that the car would deliver high 30's in terms of mpg, and have come up with a theory on why this is. Where the Prius falls flat (pun intended) as a fuel miser in Cambodia is rather complicated. It all boils down to how the Prius is designed.
Basically, unless you're able to get your car above 40 kph (often quite hard here), then under light throttle you're stuck in EV mode (electricity mode only) most of the time. You might think that's a good thing (not burning gas right?) but it's actually the opposite of helpful in this case. Reason being comes down how the Prius tops up it's battery pack in only city applications. When you're idling or below 40 kph ish, the petrol motor simply turns the electric motor and charges the battery. Why is this "bad"? Think of it like this.
Take a liter of petrol. You have 100% or "100 units" of energy.
Run that liter of petrol through the Prius's gas engine which is 20% efficient at making liquid petrol into forward movement (taking into account that it's used and not operating under optimal conditions). Result? 20 units of "mileage" or energy to be used to move the car.
If you simply use that to simply turn the wheels, it's roughly 95% efficient in converting those 20 units to motion. So, you get 19 units of distance (energy wise) out of that liter of petrol.
HOWEVER
If you're using the engine to top off the battery pack, and then use that battery pack to constantly move the car at snail pace speeds that you find in Cambodia, it's a different story completely. Here's why.
Start with the same 20 units of energy.
Step 1, use the petrol motor to turn the electric motor/transmission (generator). 90% efficient, you now have 18 units of energy. remaining.
Step 2, use the battery controller to direct the current to charge the battery pack. 85% efficient (est. from Nissan Leaf electronic motor efficiency figures). 15.3 units of energy.
Step 3, send the current back out the controller towards the motor, 85% efficient. 13.01 units of mileage.
Step 4, power the electric motor to turn the wheels, 90% efficient (drivetrain and frictional losses). 11.7 units of mileage.
This means you lose 39.5% of your fuel economy. Translated to real world figures, our 48 mpg city rating now turns into 29 mpg.
**We're negating the regenerative braking effects because those apply to both high speeds and low speeds as well**
Now that's still quite good honestly, considering that similar superminis and such would barely be able to top 25-30 mpg in such conditions as well, but that's not where the story ends.
Two more things to take into account.
1. The cars here are used, and hence, the petrol motor and electrical components are not in top condition. My car is an 06', but that still means the battery is 9 years old, and 9 year old batteries and not the same as new ones obviously. Their efficiency and capacity to hold a charge is compromised to say the least. Same the petrol engine, in it's prime it might be a good candidate for those 20-30% efficiency numbers, but being tired and worn out, it's unlikely to be anywhere near that effective.
2. Relates to powerbands. For those non petrol heads, the concept is this. Engines have a speed they like to turn at to be the most efficient. Unfortunately for the Prius (or any gas car for that matter), that speed is not idle or anywhere near that area. So while theoretically the petrol engine can be 30% efficient in it's prime, it's closer to being 3/4 as efficient most of the time because it's not spinning at it's optimal efficiency range. So, even if your car was brand new and perfect, under the best of circumstances you are going to be getting only 75% of your advertised fuel economy if you drive in Cambodian conditions (start and stop, dirt roads, snail pace traffic, etc).
Now with this in mind, the 23 mpg I achieved is no surprise at all, and in fact, rather predictable. Simple maths explain why, as it turns out.
BUT!!! Remember that if you do make trips above 40 kph often (province runs and such), then the Prius is very capable of 40+ mpg, and if you read up on hypermiling (driving efficiently) tips, then people have been known to eek out 50+ mpg if they're lucky. So that then begs the next question about the big stuff.
Maintenance and upkeep
Below just lists what you'll be looking at objectively, so you can make the choice for yourself.
Maintenance
The Prius is not as simple as Toyota makes it out to be when they claim that a simple mechanic can do most repairs and services to it. It's a lie. A/C refrigerant, engine coolant, transmission fluid, and even the 12v battery (yes, the Prius uses a 12v battery PLUS it's traction battery pack), is all DIFFERENT and INCOMPATIBLE with "normal" cars. That means that anything that most shops stock is not going to work with your Prius if you want to keep up on maintenance.
However, if you know of where to buy the proper fluids (I don't honestly, I've only been back for 4 days), and you have a trusted shop, then you're good to go.
Upkeep/Repairs
The Prius is not a simple machine to diagnose, nor is it a nice car to work on. I am Asian sized (167 cm, 58 kg), but I don't exaggerate when I say that I can not fit my hand behind the headlamp to change out the bulb. I actually had to pull off the front bumper to get to it when I did it yesterday **growls under breath** although I remember there was a special process you can take if you're smart and patient (which I'm not).
Also where it differs from other cars is that it has 15 computers ("only" 4 of them are essential for operating the car), 2 water pumps (engine cooling system), and a central "navigation" system, which is a single screen where you control every function of the car such as the A/C, sound system, navigation, etc. and of course, a hybrid drivetrain (battery and electric motor).
Simply put, IF you have problems with ANY of the above, you're likely in a world of hurt. Diagnosing and repair the Prius is anything but straight forward, and you don't have an idea of what the term (cell matching) means, your mechanic has little chance of getting your car back on the road if you have a major issue with the hybrid drivertrain.
However on the flip side, Priuses are insanely reliable considering how complicated they are. I've known several owners (while I was running a shop) who had racked up hundreds of thousands of miles (some over 450,000) and had saved a fair amount of petrol. Their cars hadn't had so much as a 12v battery go dead, let alone anything related to the computer system or hybrid traction battery. This isn't to say that it doesn't happen though, and my last Prius (06 in 08') had to have the hybrid pack replaced under warranty as well one of the water pumps.
I wont lie though, Prius cars are very reliable, not just for a hybrid, but as a car in general.
So it is worth it?
Now I'll tell you my personal opinion on the matter here. It's all about gambling. If you're willing to gamble with potentially saving money on BOTH the buy in and fuel savings, then go for it. If not, steer clear. Weigh the risks and benefits in your mind and then make a decision, that's the best advice I can give.
Personally, although I find the car hideously ugly and potentially expensive in the long run, the car has a certain novelty to it that I enjoy. The fact that it's a car that runs and drives is amazing to me, and having this car has had me digging all over the engine bay and tinkering with it to see how the engineers made it work. Also, it has been a fun throwback to 2008 where I would constantly play "save the petrol" like it was a computer game. Prius owners, you'll know what I mean.
Hope it helps to anyone considering one.
Happy motoring!
-AE86 (Akira)
Owning a hybrid in Cambodia. My experience with a Prius.
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Welcome back Akira. In form as always.
When my 430 was getting a re-gas I did have the chance to see one of those Priuses with its guts all over Touch's shop floor. It had to get towed in after the battery failed.
Those boys reckon they can source a battery for $600. I suspect that is probably second hand, but the prices are down from circa $2000 several years ago, so maybe hybrids on the second hand market are becoming a viable option.
I did smile, because the tips on changing the battery were coming from a Youtube clip of an American mechanic over the shop's communal IPad. There was a bit of head scratching, but they got there in the end. Khmers can be pretty handy.
Those Priuses are cheap now too - I reckon you could get one for $9000. Still, then you would be a Prius driver, so there are pros and cons
When my 430 was getting a re-gas I did have the chance to see one of those Priuses with its guts all over Touch's shop floor. It had to get towed in after the battery failed.
Those boys reckon they can source a battery for $600. I suspect that is probably second hand, but the prices are down from circa $2000 several years ago, so maybe hybrids on the second hand market are becoming a viable option.
I did smile, because the tips on changing the battery were coming from a Youtube clip of an American mechanic over the shop's communal IPad. There was a bit of head scratching, but they got there in the end. Khmers can be pretty handy.
Those Priuses are cheap now too - I reckon you could get one for $9000. Still, then you would be a Prius driver, so there are pros and cons
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
Excellent post, Akira
My family had always been mulling the idea of getting a hybrid but it was always shot down because of the dread of maintenance. The argument was "we might save on gas but think of spare parts and immobilization costs if mechanics fuck up."
So that's nice to have a very detailed review to show around.
My family had always been mulling the idea of getting a hybrid but it was always shot down because of the dread of maintenance. The argument was "we might save on gas but think of spare parts and immobilization costs if mechanics fuck up."
So that's nice to have a very detailed review to show around.
Re: the battery, there are ways of piecing a pack together, but youtube videos are really not the way to go when it comes to that. I wont go into the specifics, but essentially from what's I've seen from Khmer mechanics, if it runs, it's "good good". The battery packs in Priuses are actually a series of 29? (or 32, I forgot which) individual cells that all have to be in balance with each other, meaning they have to be in relatively the same condition. Batteries degrade over time, so the most common failure in the traction battery is when one cell falls too far out of limits and causes issues with the ECU.Petrol Head wrote: Those boys reckon they can source a battery for $600. I suspect that is probably second hand, but the prices are down from circa $2000 several years ago, so maybe hybrids on the second hand market are becoming a viable option.
Now when something fails, the common idea is to "put a new one" in. It's a relatively simple process to remove the pack and remove the dead cell (simple voltage test will point out which one is bad), but putting a new cell in is actually a very bad idea. Yes, it will restore FUNCTION to the pack, but that cell is now a much "stronger" and "healthier" cell and hence, it's throws the balance of the pack out the other way. So while the car will start and run ("fixed" as far as many are concerned), you've just launched a ticking time bomb. That healthy cell wont charge and discharge evenly with the other cells in the battery and essentially, you're slowly ruining the pack over time.
So, it seems like getting a used cell would be ideal, but then it's not that simple again. Batteries are not like containers, they're like people. They have personalities, and really, the only way to properly repair the pack is to match a cell with similar characteristics as the entire pack. Discharged, Charge, max voltage, max capacity, etc, they all have to be inline for the pack to get along with itself essentially, and it's complicated to say the least.
That's the low down on what I was told and from what I gathered from my own research when I had a Prius. That's also what the tech at Toyota told me when my old Prius was getting the battery repaired (I was mad that I was getting a used cell vs. a new one). That's also why it took 9 WEEKS before the dealer gave me my car back because the replacement battery pack had to be located first, and then all of the cells had to be individually tested until a suitable one was found for my car.
Anyway, I suspect the blokes here are simple doing a "youtube build" of the pack, but unless they have proper battery diagnostic equipment (which can apply load to individual cells and read the battery ECM data), there's no way to guarantee it's done right.
Also, $600 is inline with a salvaged core (dead cells), but not a functioning pack. I suspect they would try and combine the two to make a pack that would "work". To get it properly done, parts alone I'd venture to say would cost $1,200-1,700. That includes properly matching the pack. An aftermarket pack I think can be had for around $2,500 in the US, and that is one with brand new batteries all around.
Messy to say the least...
My only other major concerns for these are the voltage regulating ECUs and the permanent magnet motors themselves. The e-motors, they're not bulletproof unfortunately and are subject to damage when there are ECU and/or voltage spikes (much like what you'd get from a faulty battery pack, lol). The motors are susceptible to being burnt (I had to replace one) and boy was it a massive undertaking. The motor was "only" $900, but it required pull both the engine and gearbox out and apart, plus disassembling the gearbox itself to access the e-motor. I charged the guy 17 hours of labor, and that was being very generous. Car only had 130,000 miles (200k km?).Petrol Head wrote:...maybe hybrids on the second hand market are becoming a viable option.
The regarding the battery ECU, if that goes wry, everything on the car is at risk for damage, and that's when hybrids can get expensive.
Honestly, if a more "mainstream" mechanical hybrid were available here (like GM's e-assist or Honda's IMA system) where it's more of a light hybrid, then I'd worry a lot less about it being a liability. Toyota though seemed to think it would be a good idea to apply spaceship complexity into a consumer product, and amazingly they made it work. How they did that though, it still baffles me.
I would agree is the fuel savings was tangible honestly. Funny though, coming from Japan (where petrol was $9 a gallon when I was there), I still drove a Toyota Mark II (18-22 mpg US) and it never once made me feel strained for cash. When I "upgraded" to a 65 mpg Daihatsu Mira, all I was able to do was eat sushi a once or twice more a month.Joon wrote:Excellent post, Akira
My family had always been mulling the idea of getting a hybrid but it was always shot down because of the dread of maintenance. The argument was "we might save on gas but think of spare parts and immobilization costs if mechanics fuck up."
So that's nice to have a very detailed review to show around.
Reckless driving cucumber - 成
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thanks for the write up, i have seen them here in Thailand but there like $60,000+ for a new one
a 5 year old one would still be over $25,000
a 5 year old one would still be over $25,000
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Marvellous post. So many of my Khmer friends are buying them, and my wife is hassling me to. Now I've got the ammo to fend her off!
I still can't get my head round Khmers pronouncing it 'Bruce', though!
I still can't get my head round Khmers pronouncing it 'Bruce', though!
I came, I argued, I'm out
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Hi Akira,
Great post as always
On another note a buddy of mine has a Prius and is always complaining about the fuel economy too.
He seemed to think it was due to the A/C being on, would only work when the petrol motor was on, therefore negating the electric engine benefits.
Nobody wants to drive around this town with the A/C off right?
Also do you know what kind of refrigerant does the Prius use?
Great post as always
On another note a buddy of mine has a Prius and is always complaining about the fuel economy too.
He seemed to think it was due to the A/C being on, would only work when the petrol motor was on, therefore negating the electric engine benefits.
Nobody wants to drive around this town with the A/C off right?
Also do you know what kind of refrigerant does the Prius use?
Bond: "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned."
Q: "That's putting it mildly, 007!"
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Re: A/C running with motor on.. that means that there's something wrong with the car. Honda's IMA system (and I think everyone else's) needs the petrol motor to run the A/C, but the Toyota can run the A/C with the petrol motor off. It's still not any better though on gas because of the reasons above, and honestly, I'd rather have an IMA Honda or GM e-assist than the Prius because it's so much less complicated. Actually come to think of it, I'm plenty happy with the Skyactiv Mazda right now. It returns 38 mpg US on the highway and is massively better looking, plus simpler.James Bong wrote:He seemed to think it was due to the A/C being on, would only work when the petrol motor was on, therefore negating the electric engine benefits.
Also do you know what kind of refrigerant does the Prius use?
Anyway, that then leads to why the Prius uses a special refrigerant, because rather than have a simple mechanical compressor driven by a belt, it's an electrical motor driven A/C system and hence, it's Toyota specific and is a low conductivity refrigerant/oil combo. I don't remember what it's called though, only that it was a dealer item and that it was damn expensive.
Last edited by AE86 on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reckless driving cucumber - 成
I was thinking about buying one too, but now no more, thanks for that, Akira!
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Excellent point and here lies the problem ultimately for servicing in Cambodia.AE86 wrote: Yes, it will restore FUNCTION to the pack, but that cell is now a much "stronger" and "healthier" cell and hence, it's throws the balance of the pack out the other way.
I wouldnt profess to know anything about Hybrid technology but I do question the logic of Hybrids in the face of increasingly efficient diesel offerings. When I was over in Berlin I was checking out the new A6 Ultra which is kinda the CSR answer to the RS6. This big, executive sized car will do 140 mph but will achieve (if you drive sedately) 61.4 miles per gallon! Doesn't look like a white good either.
Of course, its' totally useless in Cambodia on our sub-Caterpillar grade diesel, but in the real world why on earth would you dick around with batteries?
And RE your Mazda - I think Mazda are making the most exciting mainstream cars in the world right now. Why did it take so long for the Japanese to realise something can be beautiful and mainstream at the same time?
Haha - my money’s on Playboy
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^^I do wish I had a 6, they're so gorgeous.
Reckless driving cucumber - 成
Have to agree, recently sold my 2001 Lexus RX300 for a 2006 Range Rover Sport (bottom of the range 2.7 diesel) and the fuel savings are astonishing, even for an older year diesel. Combined mpg is listed as 25, but in the hands of a pro (ahem) I'm sure it is more. The thing drives like a tank (accelerates like a dog that woke up with a dead leg), but I almost forget to bother to check the fuel gauge when I drive it. I'm saving minimum $500 per month in fuel alone versus the RX300. The key for me though has been its off-road ability (novice level!). I've got a patch of land out where tarmac and gravel doesn't exist that it just cruises through (been bogged down in the RX300 previously in much nicer conditions). Closer to home it is equally happy to go through Phnom Penh 'puddles' that BMW X6, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayennes & others turn away from - something you definitely don't want to be tackling in a Prius!Petrol Head wrote:.. I do question the logic of Hybrids in the face of increasingly efficient diesel offerings..
Always hated diesels for the noise & dull performance, but I'm converted. The newer diesel version is listed at 38mpg combined, and there is a diesel/hybrid option (44mpg) - that's just plain weird! With the cost of diesel/petrol always on the rise, it's a significant factor to consider before you fork out on a Cambodian lemon!
Last edited by Spigzy on Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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