Whew, now I can sleep at night, knowing that Conner has talked to a few Japs about using atomic bombs and "many" thought they were immoral. What did the few others say?connecticuter wrote:
I would not worry about Japan getting a nuke. I have had discussions with Japanese people on this very matter. Many held that nukes are immoral and ought not to be used. Many also stated that they feared the mere presence of such weapons. ...
Terrorist Attack in Bangkok, Iranian Involved
- vladimir
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I'm sure the Japanese army would never have used the bomb if they had had it before the US.
How can you imprison and torture someone you've blown to pieces?
How can you imprison and torture someone you've blown to pieces?
ירי ילדים והפצצת אזרחים דורש אומץ, כמו גם הטרדה מינית של עובדי ההוראה.
- kinglear#1
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I did say that the article was a bit one-sided and extreme. The facts about the atrocities might well remain, but you're right, I need to find a more balanced reference. I'm just a humble seeker after truth and needed a quick source to point out to connie that it wasn't all one-sided.jm wrote:One more harangue. What's with the maps on that site Lear? To the completely ignorant one would surmise that the appearance of the word Palestine on 19th century maps indicates a pre-existing Palestinian state. The fact that the maps are presented without discussion makes pretty clear the level of intelligence presumed by the author. I think you can do better Lear.
I'm spending time with three pertinent books I highly recommend, Jerusalem: A Biography, Closing of the Muslim Mind, two i mentioned elsewhere, and Laqueur's History of Zionism. E-copies at Garage.
O, let me not be mad, not mad, sweet heaven
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Me too. If I felt that there was a sensible and rational discussion to be had, I might make the time to dig out facts and figures. Now in Conny's last response to me he's saying the CAUSES of the conflict are outside the parameters of his debate, presumably because they rather seriously undermine his extremism; therefore, he wants to focus the debate on imagined scenarios. Sorry, I just don't have the time to waste. The debating methodology being used by a trained academic here is dangerously akin to those used by extremists such as Al-Qaeda supporters or Creation Scientists. Without detailed stats to back me up, I'll just make the general comment that ever since Palestinians started throwing sticks and stones at Israel, the State has consistently reacted with overwhelmingly disproportionate responses (however you much you might dispute the sources and figures KL dug out, the gist is undeniable). For me, the essential issue is a simple one - Justice: impersonal, impartial justice - anyone but the most fanatical extremist would concur that the Palestinians have not had and are not getting it, and that this does matter.kinglear#1 wrote:I did say that the article was a bit one-sided and extreme. The facts about the atrocities might well remain, but you're right, I need to find a more balanced reference. I'm just a humble seeker after truth and needed a quick source to point out to connie that it wasn't all one-sided.jm wrote:One more harangue. What's with the maps on that site Lear? To the completely ignorant one would surmise that the appearance of the word Palestine on 19th century maps indicates a pre-existing Palestinian state. The fact that the maps are presented without discussion makes pretty clear the level of intelligence presumed by the author. I think you can do better Lear.
I'm spending time with three pertinent books I highly recommend, Jerusalem: A Biography, Closing of the Muslim Mind, two i mentioned elsewhere, and Laqueur's History of Zionism. E-copies at Garage.
I came, I argued, I'm out
- connecticuter
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I never said the causes of regional conflict are outside the bounds of debate. As I said earlier, we seem to have a disagreement over the nature of the causes. In my view the regional causes are rooted in a. fundamentalist Islamic ideology that calls for the murder of jews as part of the religious duty of jihad, and b. dictatorial nations using the plight of palestinians to distract their own repressed publics and as a pretext for their own political machinations. In contrast, you seem to be argueing that a. the very nature that Israel exists is cause, and b. the claim that Israel was founded by terror (which reasonable people can disagree about - it is more complex than that).andyinasia wrote:If I felt that there was a sensible and rational discussion to be had, I might make the time to dig out facts and figures. Now in Conny's last response to me he's saying the CAUSES of the conflict are outside the parameters of his debate, presumably because they rather seriously undermine his extremism; therefore, he wants to focus the debate on imagined scenarios. Sorry, I just don't have the time to waste.
andyinasia wrote:The debating methodology being used by a trained academic here is dangerously akin to those used by extremists such as Al-Qaeda supporters or Creation Scientists.
I think we are really talking past one another. I was trying to get at the Israel/Iran problem. I read you as thinking that palestinians and their neighbors are merely reacting to perceived Israeli injustice. As if Israel made the sorts of changes I suggested earlier, then there would be peace in the region. I see international relations as more complex than that. When countries make claims of justice and law as the source of their motives I am extremely skeptical. As I said before, if the US ceased to provide Israel with protection I have no doubt they would be wiped out.andyinasia wrote:Without detailed stats to back me up, I'll just make the general comment that ever since Palestinians started throwing sticks and stones at Israel, the State has consistently reacted with overwhelmingly disproportionate responses (however you much you might dispute the sources and figures KL dug out, the gist is undeniable). For me, the essential issue is a simple one - Justice: impersonal, impartial justice - anyone but the most fanatical extremist would concur that the Palestinians have not had and are not getting it, and that this does matter.
Finally, I do not think it is important to the discussion at hand about how Israel was founded. The founding of the US was a complicated bloody and less than lawful (by todays standards) affair. Native American Indians are not getting the land back: end of story. The reality on the ground, here today, and not old grievances must guide our analysis and policy recommendations.
The Israelis are not going to give up Israel, there will be no right of return (that will destroy the Jewish nature of Israel). As far as the claim that they overreact, I just do not know what you expect. Israel could turn gaza into a parking lot if they wanted, they show restraint. They show restraint when they use targeted assassinations rather than use full scale invasion. They show restraint by negotiating with Fatah, a terrorist organization. They showed restraint when the ridiculous flotilla members beat Israeli soldiers with pipes. They show restraint when they provide palestinians with jobs and utilities. They show restraint by letting palestinians travel.
How many other nations, in the face of regular terror and with such so called peace partners (which call for your destruction and promote terror) would be as gentle as the Israelis? If I was responsible for policy in Israel I would not tolerate the situation. After one rocket attack from gaza, I would send the troops in - they would not leave until hamas was eliminated.
That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart.
- kinglear#1
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This could easily be from "Diary of a Madman" Just the kind of hardliner attitude that leads to more innocent deaths, rather than reasoned argument. Thankfully, you are NOT responsible for policy in Israel. Don't you consider that the hardliners in Hamas have just such unreasonable feelings?connecticuter wrote: In my view the regional causes are rooted in a. fundamentalist Islamic ideology that calls for the murder of jews as part of the religious duty of jihad, and b. dictatorial nations using the plight of palestinians to distract their own repressed publics and as a pretext for their own political machinations. In contrast, you seem to be argueing(SIC) that a. the very nature that Israel exists is cause, and b. the claim that Israel was founded by terror (which reasonable people can disagree about - it is more complex than that).
I think we are really talking past one another. I was trying to get at the Israel/Iran problem. I read you as thinking that palestinians and their neighbors are merely reacting to perceived Israeli injustice. As if Israel made the sorts of changes I suggested earlier, then there would be peace in the region. I see international relations as more complex than that. When countries make claims of justice and law as the source of their motives I am extremely skeptical. As I said before, if the US ceased to provide Israel with protection I have no doubt they would be wiped out.
Finally, I do not think it is important to the discussion at hand about how Israel was founded. The founding of the US was a complicated bloody and less than lawful (by todays standards) affair. Native American Indians are not getting the land back: end of story. The reality on the ground, here today, and not old grievances must guide our analysis and policy recommendations.
The Israelis are not going to give up Israel, there will be no right of return (that will destroy the Jewish nature of Israel). As far as the claim that they overreact, I just do not know what you expect. Israel could turn gaza into a parking lot if they wanted, they show restraint. They show restraint when they use targeted assassinations rather than use full scale invasion. They show restraint by negotiating with Fatah, a terrorist organization. They showed restraint when the ridiculous flotilla members beat Israeli soldiers with pipes. They show restraint when they provide palestinians with jobs and utilities. They show restraint by letting palestinians travel.
How many other nations, in the face of regular terror and with such so called peace partners (which call for your destruction and promote terror) would be as gentle as the Israelis? If I was responsible for policy in Israel I would not tolerate the situation. After one rocket attack from gaza, I would send the troops in - they would not leave until hamas was eliminated.
Any gains Israel has made in terms of territory has been made in exactly that - a forcible way! 'Gentle' Israel (as you call it) is no more gentle than 'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild' , who was so gentle when he bound a length of cord and whipped the money-changers out of the Temple!
Get real, please, connie. Israel has committed numerous atrocities - as has the Palestinian side. Israel is not without blame in this conflict - indeed, it has repeatedly stolen/forced land concessions out of the Palestinians. And wholly backed by the US. Attempts have been made by reasonable US presidents, such as Carter, but the 'we must support Israel' mantra remains - because the support of the pro-Israel lobby is the most powerful in the US and one of the most powerful in the UK. You seem to be seduced by this nonsense.
I'll post more proof of Israel's atrocities, unless you concede that Israel is not 'whiter than white' in this conflict. Stop burying your head in the sand.
In between lessons today, I borrowed "The Arab-Israeli Conflict" off our history teacher, which tome gives a bland, but factual, account of the history of this unfortunate conflict. It is not pleasant reading from Israel's perspective, though is balanced. War benefits not many, but it is by no means a one-sided argument.
The 'gentle' bombing of kids playing on the beach must have been gratifying for the proponents of the 'gentle' Israel lobby!
O, let me not be mad, not mad, sweet heaven
- horace
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I still say the bloke's a nutter, Mr C that is, not the delightful Mr lear.kinglear#1 wrote:This could easily be from "Diary of a Madman" Just the kind of hardliner attitude that leads to more innocent deaths, rather than reasoned argument. Thankfully, you are NOT responsible for policy in Israel. Don't you consider that the hardliners in Hamas have just such unreasonable feelings?connecticuter wrote: In my view the regional causes are rooted in a. fundamentalist Islamic ideology that calls for the murder of jews as part of the religious duty of jihad, and b. dictatorial nations using the plight of palestinians to distract their own repressed publics and as a pretext for their own political machinations. In contrast, you seem to be argueing(SIC) that a. the very nature that Israel exists is cause, and b. the claim that Israel was founded by terror (which reasonable people can disagree about - it is more complex than that).
I think we are really talking past one another. I was trying to get at the Israel/Iran problem. I read you as thinking that palestinians and their neighbors are merely reacting to perceived Israeli injustice. As if Israel made the sorts of changes I suggested earlier, then there would be peace in the region. I see international relations as more complex than that. When countries make claims of justice and law as the source of their motives I am extremely skeptical. As I said before, if the US ceased to provide Israel with protection I have no doubt they would be wiped out.
Finally, I do not think it is important to the discussion at hand about how Israel was founded. The founding of the US was a complicated bloody and less than lawful (by todays standards) affair. Native American Indians are not getting the land back: end of story. The reality on the ground, here today, and not old grievances must guide our analysis and policy recommendations.
The Israelis are not going to give up Israel, there will be no right of return (that will destroy the Jewish nature of Israel). As far as the claim that they overreact, I just do not know what you expect. Israel could turn gaza into a parking lot if they wanted, they show restraint. They show restraint when they use targeted assassinations rather than use full scale invasion. They show restraint by negotiating with Fatah, a terrorist organization. They showed restraint when the ridiculous flotilla members beat Israeli soldiers with pipes. They show restraint when they provide palestinians with jobs and utilities. They show restraint by letting palestinians travel.
How many other nations, in the face of regular terror and with such so called peace partners (which call for your destruction and promote terror) would be as gentle as the Israelis? If I was responsible for policy in Israel I would not tolerate the situation. After one rocket attack from gaza, I would send the troops in - they would not leave until hamas was eliminated.
Any gains Israel has made in terms of territory has been made in exactly that - a forcible way! 'Gentle' Israel (as you call it) is no more gentle than 'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild' , who was so gentle when he bound a length of cord and whipped the money-changers out of the Temple!
Get real, please, connie. Israel has committed numerous atrocities - as has the Palestinian side. Israel is not without blame in this conflict - indeed, it has repeatedly stolen/forced land concessions out of the Palestinians. And wholly backed by the US. Attempts have been made by reasonable US presidents, such as Carter, but the 'we must support Israel' mantra remains - because the support of the pro-Israel lobby is the most powerful in the US and one of the most powerful in the UK. You seem to be seduced by this nonsense.
I'll post more proof of Israel's atrocities, unless you concede that Israel is not 'whiter than white' in this conflict. Stop burying your head in the sand.
In between lessons today, I borrowed "The Arab-Israeli Conflict" off our history teacher, which tome gives a bland, but factual, account of the history of this unfortunate conflict. It is not pleasant reading from Israel's perspective, though is balanced. War benefits not many, but it is by no means a one-sided argument.
The 'gentle' bombing of kids playing on the beach must have been gratifying for the proponents of the 'gentle' Israel lobby!
k440, something to do when you're pissed.
- Lucky Lucan
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I'm not particularly big on Palestinians, but I distinctly remember a few full scale invasions over the last few years, which turned large areas of Gaza into a flattened parking lot. How did they show restraint when they stopped that flotilla? They executed at least 10 people. Letting people travel? That's big of them, obviously any normal country would just put a big fence around the place and force them to stay indoors for the rest of their lives.I just do not know what you expect. Israel could turn gaza into a parking lot if they wanted, they show restraint.They show restraint when they use targeted assassinations rather than use full scale invasion. They show restraint by negotiating with Fatah, a terrorist organization. They showed restraint when the ridiculous flotilla members beat Israeli soldiers with pipes. They show restraint when they provide palestinians with jobs and utilities. They show restraint by letting palestinians travel.
I still say the bloke's a nutter
Too bleeding right.
Romantic Cambodia is dead and gone. It's with McKinley in the grave.
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Okay Conny, final attempt from me to elicit some kind of rational response: you say the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948 is irrelevant, and you believe that forces within Palestine and Iran have a neo-holocaust agenda that is wholly unconnected to the founding of that State. Well then, quote me the fundamentalist Islamic ideological literature from pre-WW2 Palestine and/or Iran (Persia) that is vehemently anti-semitic and called for the genocide of the Jews. If you fail to produce this evidence, will you accept that this is because it doesn't exist and for the reason that that very ideology was born as a reaction to the abuses and injustices created by the birth of the State of Israel, a birth that came about after Jewish terrorists (and subsequent heroic statesmen) murdered 200 diplomats in the King David hotel in Jerusalem who had gathered to discuss a negotiated settlement for Jews and Palestinians to share the territory peacefully and with justice? No? I rest my case.connecticuter wrote:I never said the causes of regional conflict are outside the bounds of debate. As I said earlier, we seem to have a disagreement over the nature of the causes. In my view the regional causes are rooted in a. fundamentalist Islamic ideology that calls for the murder of jews as part of the religious duty of jihad, and b. dictatorial nations using the plight of palestinians to distract their own repressed publics and as a pretext for their own political machinations. In contrast, you seem to be argueing that a. the very nature that Israel exists is cause, and b. the claim that Israel was founded by terror (which reasonable people can disagree about - it is more complex than that)....Finally, I do not think it is important to the discussion at hand about how Israel was founded. The founding of the US was a complicated bloody and less than lawful (by todays standards) affair. Native American Indians are not getting the land back: end of story. The reality on the ground, here today, and not old grievances must guide our analysis and policy recommendations.andyinasia wrote:If I felt that there was a sensible and rational discussion to be had, I might make the time to dig out facts and figures. Now in Conny's last response to me he's saying the CAUSES of the conflict are outside the parameters of his debate, presumably because they rather seriously undermine his extremism; therefore, he wants to focus the debate on imagined scenarios. Sorry, I just don't have the time to waste.
I came, I argued, I'm out
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Okay jm, have to pretty much concede to the accuracy of your valid factual points. I do think it's worth noting that in the period you refer to at the beginning - the intermediate years between WW1 and WW2 the population of Jews in Palestine had bloated from about 5% (quiet and comfortably accommodated) to 33% - a huge and disorganised increase, understandably causing Palestinian concern. Anyway, I'm not a specialist historian, nor is this an area in which I have a personal or particular interest - and I REALLY don't have time to get more involved in the debate. My main motivation for getting involved was to take to task Conny on his methodology. You might broadly share his position of defending Israel, but the nature of your argument is, for me, reasonable and rational. Whilst if I had more time, I could engage you further, in the circs I'm happy to leave you with the last word (on me, I mean; it's not my thread!).
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- connecticuter
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Thank you Mr. Belvedere. We can always count on you for your witty and insightful writing.horace wrote:I still say the bloke's a nutter, Mr C that is, not the delightful Mr lear.
I would not say it is irrelevant in general. Rather, I think it is irrelevant regarding the crafting of policy. The foundation of Israel clearly did go some way in enhancing Islamic hatred of Jews. But that is not going to help us in crafting policy - other than suggesting removal of the jews from Israel, which is not a realistic option.andyinasia wrote: Okay Conny, final attempt from me to elicit some kind of rational response: you say the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948 is irrelevant, and you believe that forces within Palestine and Iran have a neo-holocaust agenda that is wholly unconnected to the founding of that State.
The koran, the hadith, and the commentaries.andyinasia wrote:Well then, quote me the fundamentalist Islamic ideological literature from pre-WW2 Palestine and/or Iran (Persia) that is vehemently anti-semitic and called for the genocide of the Jews. If you fail to produce this evidence, will you accept that this is because it doesn't exist and for the reason that that very ideology was born as a reaction to the abuses and injustices created by the birth of the State of Israel, a birth that came about after Jewish terrorists (and subsequent heroic statesmen) murdered 200 diplomats in the King David hotel in Jerusalem who had gathered to discuss a negotiated settlement for Jews and Palestinians to share the territory peacefully and with justice? No? I rest my case.
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As far as atrocities are concerned, I am not in denial. I admit such things have happened. They also almost always happen in conflict, even despite the best efforts of a nation to avoid them. Again, I put Israel's actions in the context of being surrounded by a sea of hostile arab neighbors and being constantly assaulted by palestinian terrorism. Given decades of such crisis, I see their conduct in general as measured.
That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart.
- kinglear#1
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I presume these comments are addressed to me, since you (as your wishes towards the Palestinian people show) refuse to acknowledge that some people exist. I don't think any genocidal actions are 'measured'. But thank you for conceding that atrocities do happen on both sides. Amen to that. I think you are misguided, but respect your right to hold those views.connecticuter wrote:
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As far as atrocities are concerned, I am not in denial. I admit such things have happened. They also almost always happen in conflict, even despite the best efforts of a nation to avoid them. Again, I put Israel's actions in the context of being surrounded by a sea of hostile arab neighbors and being constantly assaulted by palestinian terrorism. Given decades of such crisis, I see their conduct in general as measured.
O, let me not be mad, not mad, sweet heaven
- Phuket2006
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I think we need to re title this thread as according to;
Gen Panlop Pinmanee adviser to the prime minister
and from Sukumpol Suwanatat Defense Minister,
Gen Panlop Pinmanee adviser to the prime minister
"the bombs used were just small bombs. I don't think they would be used for terror purposes"
and from Sukumpol Suwanatat Defense Minister,
" Some bad people made some bombs. There was an explosion. That's the end of it"
"We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer." HST
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